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Updated July 28, 2021 to include the new SBA PPP Direct Forgiveness Portal.
What are Paycheck Protection Program Loans?
The Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) loan is a type of SBA loan designed to provide funds to help small businesses impacted by COVID-19 to keep their workers on payroll. These loans may be completely forgiven if spent on eligible expenses (mainly payroll) during a specific time period.
Update: Paycheck Protection Program Loans are no longer available.
Please keep in mind this information is changing rapidly and is based on our current understanding of the programs. It can and likely will change. Although we will be monitoring and updating this as new information becomes available, please do not rely solely on this for your financial decisions. We encourage you to consult with your lawyers, CPAs and Financial Advisors. To review your real-time funding options with one of Nav’s lending experts, please contact us.
What kinds of PPP loans are available?
There is funding for three categories of PPP loans in this legislation:
- First time PPP loans for businesses who qualified under the CARES Act but did not get a loan (“first draw” PPP loans);
- Second draw PPP loans for businesses that obtained a PPP loan but need additional funding; and
- Additional funding for businesses that returned their first PPP loan or for certain businesses that did not get the full amount for which they qualified.
In this round, certain small news organizations, destination marketing organizations, housing cooperatives, and 501(c)(6) nonprofits may now also be eligible for PPP loans.
For all PPP loans, no collateral or personal guarantee is required. For these new loans, any amount not forgiven becomes a loan at 1% for five years. (Loans issued prior to June 5, 2020 have a maturity of two years.)
Who is eligible for second draw PPP loans?
Many small businesses and independent contractors may be eligible for second draw PPP loans if you received a PPP loan previously and qualify. First, similar to the first rounds of PPP, eligible small businesses may include:
- Small businesses, nonprofit organizations, veterans organizations, Tribal business concerns, and small agricultural cooperatives that meet the SBA size standards.
- Sole proprietors, self employed individuals or independent contractors.
In addition, applicants for second draw loans must also meet the following criteria:
- The business may not have more than 300 employees and
- The business must have at least a 25% reduction in revenues in at least one quarter in 2020 when compared to previous quarters (more details below)
Businesses with multiple locations that qualified under the CARES Act may qualify for a second draw provided they employ fewer than 300 people in each location. Affiliation rule waivers from the CARES Act still apply.
Businesses must “have used or will use the full amount of the initial PPP loan for authorized purposes on or before the expected date of disbursement of the Second Draw PPP Loan.”
Certain types of businesses are not eligible including most businesses normally not eligible for SBA loans, businesses where the primary activity is lobbying, and businesses with certain ties to China. (Note the CARES Act made an exception for certain non-profits and agricultural cooperatives, for example, which are not normally eligible for SBA 7(a) loans.) Publicly traded companies are not eligible to receive second draw PPP loans.
How is the 25% reduction in revenues calculated?
Business owners will compare gross receipts (see definition below) of the business for any quarter in 2020 to the same quarter in 2019 to determine if revenues decreased by at least 25%.
Remember, this calculation applies to second draw PPP loans, not to first draw PPP loans.
What if you weren’t in business all of 2019? Stick with us. This sounds more complicated than really is:
First, remember a business must have been in operation by Feb. 15, 2020 to be eligible.
If you were not in business during the first or second quarter of 2019 but you were in business in the third and fourth quarter of 2019, then you may compare any quarter in 2020 with the third or fourth quarter of 2019 to determine whether gross receipts were reduced by at least 25%.
If you were not in business during the first, second or third quarter of 2019, but you were in business in the fourth quarter of 2019, then you may compare any quarter in 2020 with the fourth quarter of 2019 to determine whether gross receipts were reduced by at least 25%.
A business that wasn’t in business in 2019 but was in business before February 15, 2020 will compare gross receipts from the second, third or fourth quarter of 2020 to that first quarter of 2020 to determine whether gross receipts were reduced by at least 25%.
In addition, there is a simplified calculation that allows the business to compare annual revenue losses. If you were in business for all four quarters of 2019 you will be eligible to compare your annual receipts from 2019 to 2020 to demonstrate the 25 percent revenue reduction, and you will provide annual tax return forms as documentation.
Some business owners that operate on a fiscal basis have asked about using non-calendar quarters. According to SBA guidance, businesses that use a fiscal year to file taxes may document a reduction in gross receipts with income tax returns only if their fiscal year contains all of the second, third, and fourth quarters of the calendar year (i.e., have a fiscal year start date of February 1, March 1, or April 1).
Also note that for nonprofits and veteran’s organizations, the term gross receipts has the same definition as gross receipts under section 6033 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986.
For loans of up to $150,000 you can simply certify your revenue loss when you apply, but on or before you apply for forgiveness you will have to produce documentation of that revenue loss. To document revenue loss, the SBA says businesses may use one of the following:
- Quarterly financial statements. If the financial statements are not audited, the applicant must sign and date the first page of the financial statement and initial all other pages, attesting to their accuracy. If the financial statements do not specifically identify the line item(s) that constitute gross receipts, the applicant must annotate which line item(s) constitute gross receipts.
- Quarterly or monthly bank statements showing deposits from the relevant quarters. If it is not clear which deposits listed on the bank statement constitute gross receipts (e.g., payments for purchases of goods and services) and which do not (e.g., capital infusions), the business must annotate them.
- Annual IRS income tax filings (required if using an annual reference period). If the entity has not yet filed a tax return for 2020, the applicant must fill out the return forms, compute the relevant gross receipts value and sign and date the return, attesting that the values that enter into the gross receipts computation are the same values that will be filed on the entity’s tax return.
What are gross receipts?
The guidance from the SBA defines gross receipts as follows:
“All revenue in whatever form received or accrued (in accordance with the entity’s accounting method) from whatever source, including from the sales of products or services, interest, dividends, rents, royalties, fees, or commissions, reduced by returns and allowances. Generally, receipts are considered “total income” (or in the case of a sole proprietorship, independent contractor, or self-employed individual “gross income”) plus “cost of goods sold,” and excludes net capital gains or losses as these terms are defined and reported on IRS tax return forms.
Gross receipts do not include the following:
- taxes collected for and remitted to a taxing authority if included in gross or total income (such as sales or other taxes collected from customers and excluding taxes levied on the concern or its employees);
- proceeds from transactions between a concern and its domestic or foreign affiliates; and
- amounts collected for another by a travel agent, real estate agent, advertising agent, conference management service provider, freight forwarder or customs broker.
All other items, such as subcontractor costs, reimbursements for purchases a contractor makes at a customer’s request, investment income, and employee-based costs such as payroll taxes, may not be excluded from gross receipts.
The amount of any forgiven first draw PPP Loan or EIDL advance is not included in a borrower’s gross receipts.
Also note that for nonprofits and veteran’s organizations, the term gross receipts has the same definition as gross receipts under section 6033 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986.
If your business uses annual annual income tax returns to demonstrate the gross receipts reduction of at least 25 percent, the SBA guidance says to use the following amounts to calculate gross receipts:
- For self-employed individuals other than farmers and ranchers (IRS Form 1040 Schedule C): sum of line 4 and line 75
- For self-employed farmers and ranchers (IRS Form 1040 Schedule F): sum of lines 1b and 9
- For partnerships (IRS Form 1065): sum of lines 2 and 8, minus line 6
- For S-Corporations (IRS Form 1120-S): sum of lines 2 and 6, minus line 4
- For C-Corporations (IRS Form 1120): sum of lines 2 and 11, minus the sum of lines 8 and 9
- For nonprofit organizations (IRS Form 990): the sum of lines 6b(i), 6b(ii), 7b(i), 7b(ii), 8b, 9b, 10b, and 12 (column (A)) of Part VIII
- For nonprofit organizations (IRS Form 990-EZ): sum of lines 5b, 6c, 7b, and 9 of Part I.
- LLCs should follow the instructions that apply to their tax filing status in the reference periods.
How much can I get with a second draw PPP loan?
The maximum loan amount for second draw loans is $2 million. In all the examples below, the loan amount caps out at $2 million. Businesses that are part of a single corporate group can’t receive more than $4,000,000 of Second Draw PPP Loans total. An eligible entity may receive only one second draw loan.
As before, a business may qualify for up to 2.5 times average monthly payroll costs. (To get the average gross monthly payroll cost you’ll total each month’s payroll costs and divide by 12.)
You can arrive at this figure either by one of two methods— your choice (except businesses with a NAICS code beginning in 72 – see below):
- Multiply average gross monthly payroll cost for the 1-year period before the date the loan is made by 2.5 or
- Multiply average gross monthly payroll cost for 2019 or 2020 (borrower’s choice) by 2.5.
New businesses (that were not in business for the 1-year period preceding February 15, 2020) will use a slightly different formula to arrive at the average monthly payroll costs. They will divide the payroll costs paid or incurred by the date they apply by the number of months in which those costs were incurred and multiply the result by 2.5 (or 3.5 for businesses with NAICS code starting with 72). Again, new businesses must have been in business by February 15, 2020 in order to be eligible.
Seasonal businesses may apply based on the average monthly payroll costs for any 12-week period between February 15, 2019 and February 15, 2020. (See the definition of a seasonal business below.)
Businesses with a NAICS code beginning in 72 (generally hospitality businesses) may receive up to 3.5 times average monthly payroll cost using their choice of these two methods:
- Multiply average gross monthly payroll cost for the 1-year period before the loan is made by 3.5 or
- Multiply average gross monthly payroll cost for 2019 or 2020 (borrower’s choice) by 3.5.
Note that all of these methods allow the business to use payroll costs incurred or paid during the applicable time period. (You may incur a payroll cost but not actually pay it until the pay period.)
What is a seasonal employer?
A seasonal employer is defined as one that:
- “Does not operate for more than 7 months in any calendar year; or
- During the preceding calendar year, had gross receipts for any 6 months of that year that were not more than 33.33 percent of the gross receipts of the employer for the other 6 months of that year’’.
What counts as payroll?
Payroll is the same as defined in the CARES Act with one new addition (noted below):
- Salary, wages, commissions or similar compensation,
- Payment of cash tips or equivalent (based on employer records of past tips or, in the absence of such records, a reasonable, good-faith employer estimate of such tips),
- Payment for vacation, parental, family, medical, or sick leave;
- Allowance for dismissal or separation;
- Payment required for the provisions of employee benefits including insurance premiums (employer cost);
- Payment of any retirement benefit (employer cost);
- Payment of State or local tax assessed on the compensation of employees.
- New: group benefits are defined to include group life, disability, vision, or dental insurance
It does not include:
- The compensation paid to an employee in excess of $100,000 on an annualized basis, as prorated for the period during which the payments are made or the obligation to make the payments is incurred.
- Any compensation of an employee whose principal place of residence is outside the United States;
- Qualified sick and family leave wages for which a credit is allowed under sections 7001 and 7003 of the Families First Coronavirus Response Act
Do not include amounts paid to 1099 contractors; they may apply on their own.
Self-employed? Independent contractors and the self-employed with no employees may qualify based on 2.5 months of net profit (capped at $100,000) on their Schedule C tax form for 2019 or 2020. As of March 3, 2021, self-employed applicants may alternatively choose to use gross income (line 7) on their Schedule C. This new calculation only applies to businesses that have not already been approved. (Businesses with a NAICS code beginning in 72 on their most recent tax return qualify for 3.5 times average monthly payroll for a second draw loan.)
Read: Self-employed? How to Qualify for a PPP Loan
Individual partners in a partnership do not apply on their own. The payroll calculation for partnerships is found in this guidance.
What if I didn’t get a PPP loan before?
There is funding for “first draw” PPP loans and you can apply on terms similar to the original CARES Act. You do not have to demonstrate the 25% revenue loss for a first-time loan, and your business may qualify if it has more than 300 employees, provided it qualifies based on the previous CARES Act rules. Read details of those loans here.
What if I have unpaid student loan debt?
In order to expand small business access to the PPP, the SBA, in consultation with Treasury, has decided to eliminate the restriction on PPP qualification to the extent of past due or defaulted Federal student loans.
“This change will make PPP loans available to more borrowers with financial need and is consistent with Congress’s intent that PPP loans be prioritized for small business concerns owned and controlled by socially and economically disadvantaged individuals as defined in section 8(d)(3)(c) of the Small Business Act.1”
According to the Department of Education, “Black and Brown students rely more heavily on student loan debt than their peers and experience delinquency at disproportionately high rates. As a result prohibiting delinquent student loan borrowers from obtaining PPP loans is more likely to exclude business owners of color from access to the loans they need.”
What if I have a previous felony conviction?
Previously, a felony conviction or indictment in the past year would have excluded any business owner with 20% or greater interest in the company and their business from participating in the PPP. The SBA has revised the previous restriction, making it possible for a business owner with a non-financial fraud felony conviction to apply for and obtain a PPP loan.
The restriction still applies to any PPP loan applicant convicted of, pleaded guilty or nolo contendere to, or commenced any form of parole or probation (including probation before judgment) for a felony involving financial fraud, bribery, embezzlement, or a false statement in a loan application or an application for federal financial assistance within the last five years.
Can I get more money from my first PPP loan?
You may, if you qualify and SBA has not remitted a forgiveness payment to the lender on that loan. There are specific circumstances under which you may request an increase in your first draw PPP loan and you must work with the “lender of record” (the one who made the first loan).
If you returned all or part of your PPP loan, you may apply for an “amount equal to the difference between the amount retained and the maximum amount applicable.” Or, if you did not accept the full amount you may request a modification to allow you to borrow the full amount for which your business is eligible.
Partnerships that applied based on the partnership’s employees and other eligible operating expenses, but did not include any amount for partner compensation or seasonal businesses that may have qualified for a larger loan by using the average total monthly payments for payroll for any 12-week period selected by the seasonal employer beginning February 15, 2019, and ending February 15, 2020 may also apply for the difference.
However, if you are self-employed and file Schedule C you may not reapply based on the new gross income calculation.
Is there loan forgiveness for second draw PPP loans?
Yes! As with the first round of PPP, these loans may be entirely forgiven if spent for the proper purposes (primarily payroll) during the proper time period. Currently there are three PPP loan forgiveness applications:
- Form 3508
- Form 3508EZ
- Form 3508S
From 3508S is a simplified form that previously was available for loans of $50,000 or less. Now it covers loans of $150,000 or less. It requires the borrower to:
- Describe the number of employees retained due to the PPP loan,
- The estimated amount of the loan proceeds spent on payroll, and
- The total amount of the loan
The borrower will have to certify they have complied with the requirements of the loan and retain records to prove compliance. (Employment related records must be retained for four years while others must be retained for three years.)
We recommend considering opening a separate bank account to deposit your PPP funds and track expenditures.
The SBA’s new online SBA PPP Direct Forgiveness portal allows borrowers with loans of $150,000 or less to apply for forgiveness directly with the SBA.
Small Business Checking by Bank of America
How must I spend the money?
Similar to the first round of PPP, this program is primarily intended to keep employees (including the business owner or independent contractor) on payroll and to pay other specific expenses.
To obtain full forgiveness, borrowers will need to spend at least 60% of loan proceeds funding on qualified payroll expenses during the covered period. Eligible nonpayroll costs cannot exceed 40 percent of the loan forgiveness amount. The list of eligible non-payroll expenses has been expanded and now includes:
- Rent
- Mortgage interest
- Utilities
- Covered operations expenditure*
- Covered property damage cost*
- Covered supplier cost*
- Covered worker protection expenditure*
Covered operations expenditures means “payment for any business software or cloud computing service that facilitates business operations, product or service delivery, the processing, payment, or tracking of payroll expenses, human resources, sales and billing functions, or accounting or tracking of supplies, inventory, records and expenses”
Covered property damage cost means “a cost related to property damage and vandalism or looting due to public disturbances that occurred during 2020 that was not covered by insurance or other compensation;”
Covered supplier cost means “an expenditure made by an entity to a supplier of goods for the supply of goods that:
- Are essential to the operations of the entity at the time at which the expenditure is made; and
- is made pursuant to a contract, order, or purchase order— ‘‘(i) in effect at any time before the covered period with respect to the applicable covered loan; or ‘(ii) with respect to perishable goods, in effect before or at any time during the covered period”
Covered worker protection expenditure means “an operating or a capital expenditure to facilitate the adaptation of the business activities of an entity to comply with requirements established or guidance issued by the Department of Health and Human Services, the Centers for Disease Control, or the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, or any equivalent requirements established or guidance issued by a State or local government, during the period beginning on March 1, 2020 and ending the date on which the national emergency declared by the President under the National Emergencies Act (50 U.S.C. 1601 et 8 seq.) with respect to the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19) expires related to the maintenance of standards for sanitation, social distancing, or any other worker or customer safety requirement related to COVID–19; may include the purchase, maintenance, or renovation of assets that create or expand
- a drive-through window facility;
- an indoor, outdoor, or combined air or air pressure ventilation or filtration system;
- a physical barrier such as a sneeze guard;
- an expansion of additional indoor, outdoor, or combined business space;
- an onsite or offsite health screening capability; or
- other assets relating to the compliance with the requirements or guidance described in subparagraph (A) as determined by the (SBA) Administrator in consultation with the Secretary of Health and Human Services and the Secretary of Labor; the purchase of—
- covered materials described in section 328.103(a) of title 44, Code 16 of Federal Regulations, or any successor regulation;
- particulate filtering face piece respirators approved by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, including those approved only for emergency use authorization; or
- other kinds of personal protective equipment, as determined by the Administrator in consultation with the Secretary of Health and Human Services and the Secretary of 4 Labor; and does not include residential real property or intangible property;’’
(*Note the new covered expenses apply to any PPP loan except those already forgiven).
The “covered period” is the specific period of time in which you must spend the funds. It starts when the PPP loan is originated. (That’s the date the funds are deposited to your bank account.) You can choose a covered period between 8 to 24 weeks to spend the funds.
Forgiveness can be complex so make sure you read the guidance from the SBA (SBA.gov/ppp) carefully and consult with your legal or tax advisors as soon as possible.
Will an EIDL Grant be subtracted from my PPP for loan forgiveness?
No. The legislation repeals the requirement that an EIDL grant (advance) be deducted for purposes of PPP forgiveness. In addition, the SBA Administrator is required within 15 days of when this legislation is enacted to “ensure equal treatment” for borrowers whose loans have already been forgiven and who had their grants subtracted from the forgiven amount.
Where can I get one of the new PPP loans?
These loans are made by lenders approved by the SBA. Nav matches borrowers to PPP lending partners making these loans. Sign up for a free Nav account to be matched to a lender.
What else do I need to know?
There are a few other details that are helpful to understand. As with the CARES Act:
- No credit check is required. A few PPP lenders did check applicant’s personal credit in the first round of PPP, so if this is of concern, be sure to ask before you apply.
- There is no personal guarantee.
- Normal SBA collateral requirements are waived.
How do I apply for one of these PPP loans?
Lenders approved by the SBA make these loans. You can view the first draw PPP loan application here and the second draw PPP loan application here. Keep in mind, however, that you will submit your application through your lender who likely will require you to fill out an application online. Reviewing the application may help you understand what will be required to qualify.
You’ll need to submit the following information with the application:
If you are self-employed with no employees, your IRS Form 1040 Schedule C (whichever was used to calculate loan amount); documentation that you are self-employed (such as IRS Form 1099-MISC detailing nonemployee compensation received (box 7), invoice, bank statement, or book of record that establishes that the applicant is self-employed); and a 2020 invoice, bank statement, or book of record to establish that the applicant was in operation on or around February 15, 2020.
If you are not self-employed, Form 941 (or other tax forms containing similar information) and state quarterly wage unemployment insurance tax reporting forms from each quarter in 2019 or 2020 (whichever was used to calculate payroll), as applicable, or equivalent payroll processor records, along with evidence of any retirement and employee group health, life, disability, vision and dental insurance contributions. A partnership must also include its IRS Form 1065 K-1s.
If you are self-employed with employees, your 2019 or 2020 IRS Form 1040 Schedule C (whichever was used to calculate loan amount), Form 941 (or other tax forms or equivalent payroll processor records containing similar information) and state quarterly wage unemployment insurance tax reporting forms from each quarter in 2019 or 2020 (whichever was used to calculate loan amount), as applicable, or equivalent payroll processor records, along with evidence of any retirement and employee group health, life, disability, vision and dental insurance contributions, if applicable. A payroll statement or similar documentation from the pay period that covered February 15, 2020 must be provided to establish the applicant was in operation on February 15, 2020.
For all of these borrowers, you do not have to include documentation of your reduction of revenues if the loan amount is less than $150,000, but you will have to submit it when you apply for forgiveness.
If the loan amount is greater than $150,000, then you will have to submit documentation of the reduction in revenues, which may include documentation sufficient to establish that your business experienced a 25% reduction in revenue, which may include relevant tax forms (including annual tax forms), or if not available, a copy of the quarterly income statements or bank statements.
(If you are applying for a second draw PPP loan with the first lender that processed your first draw loan you don’t need to include duplicate information already submitted.)
For a second draw PPP loan, you must enter the SBA loan number of your First Draw PPP loan (the first PPP loan you obtained) when you apply. SBA loan numbers have the following format to help borrowers identify the SBA loan number of their first PPP loan: XXXXXXXX-XX (i.e. eight numbers followed by a dash and then two more numbers). If you don’t have this information, check with the lender of your first PPP loan.
Nav matches business owners to lending partners making these loans.
What other help is available for my small business?
In addition to the new PPP loans, the Act authorizes the following relief:
- Another $20 billion in funding for targeted EIDL grants and additional funding for EIDL loans.
- Pandemic unemployment benefits for the self-employed and independent contractors will be extended.
- Payment relief for eligible SBA loans will be extended. That means the SBA will cover the payment on eligible SBA loans—including interest, for up to a total of $9000 per payment— for another 3 months, and up to 8 months for certain disadvantaged borrowers.
- Funding ($12 billion) will be available for Community Development Institutions and Minority Development Institutions which in turn will help minority and low-income small business owners through a new Neighborhood Capital Investment program.
- Live venues, independent movie theaters, and cultural institutions may be eligible for $15 billion in dedicated grants. (Note that these organizations will have to choose between these grants and the new PPP loans – they can’t get both.)
- Landlords may benefit from the rental assistance program.
- Childcare businesses may be eligible for part of the $10 billion allocated for assistance.
We will continue to delve into this legislation and provide additional insights by updating this article.
This article was originally written on December 21, 2020 and updated on July 29, 2021.
Hi my name is Linda Chavis I had to close my business I had no income coming in I’m on disability but I was renting it out but now I couldn’t make payment the check I was getting was to support my family now in fifteen days the bank want there money if I don’t have it they would take my business I need help for a ppp loan quick the pandemic has mess me up bad please.
Hello, I’m an independent wedding DJ and had to shut down for the pandemic. The issue is normally my jobs are all cash jobs, I only have around $1,000 I-9 in 2019. I haven’t applied for any assistance because I assumed I’m excluded since it’s not on my tax return. During half of 2020 I was jobless and my credit took a big hit because of it, does PPE apply to my in any way?
If you did not include self-employment income on your tax returns then you likely would not qualify for PPP. You may consult your local SBA office to see if they have additional advice for you. You may also consider pandemic unemployment.
How does a millionaire piece of crap like Tom Brady qualify? It is shameful, greedy & fraudulent in my opinion.
Hey I am a sole proprietor I started business sometime around July of 2019 I have a schedule C for 2019 and I partnered up with your lending place that you guys are linked to but they have no place in there that says anything about using gross receipts and what I have is all the deposits made into our bank account as gross receipts for 2020. I am a first-time borrower and I need to use the gross receipts or I won’t be able to get very much.
Tom – The lenders Nav partnered with are familiar with this change and should be able to assist.
also maybe you can help me with this I got on here and started an account and got a password when I put it in here it doesn’t work and then it says they’ll send you an email and I do it and it doesn’t come I tried it twice no email comes even in the spam box
Tom – please call our customer support team at support@nav.com.
Please explain how the 25% reduction for one month works and can you use this to qualify for a first-time p p p
Tom – we detail that in this article under the heading How is the 25% reduction in revenues calculated?
I also saw that someone asking about that said that they had asked A lender or two or three I don’t know and they didn’t know anything about being able to qualify like that can you pair a person knowing specifically that the lender knows about this and is up on it you know.
Tom – I am sorry I don’t understand your question. Given the volume of PPP applications that still are pending I expect it will be difficult to get the kind of one-on-one help you are hoping for. (Lenders are still dealing with a LOT of PPP applications.) The deadline is fast approaching and there are limited funds available so if you are going to apply I recommend you do so asap.
I read in here somewhere that a person self-employed no employees could qualify by having one month 25% reduction is that true. I did not receive a first PPP loan.
I don’t know where one month is coming from. That’s not the information I have.
I can easily show a 25% reduction I can show a 50% reduction. I’m an eBay marketer and sell marine parts. All income comes into a PayPal account. Can I use this account ledger to show the reduction it is an easy 100% showing of the income or gross receipts like you’re saying. Also what will my loan amount be based upon. Tom
Your loan amount will be based on your payroll or, if you don’t pay yourself payroll, your Schedule C tax returns. We wrote about that in this article.
Can you help me apply for my ppp loan
PPP is closed to new applicants. You may want to look into EIDL which you apply for directly at SBA.gov.
Is there a age restriction for the PPP loan?
I have not seen one.
Is Owner compensation Replacement taxable income?
If PPP used for owner compensation replacement is forgiven it is not taxable at the federal level. Again, states may treat it as taxable income so be sure to check. (If it’s not forgiven it’s a loans and loans are not normally considered taxable income unless forgiven.)
Is Owner Compensation Replacement taxable income for self employed?
I assume you mean that if you get PPP based on owner’s compensation will it be taxable? The answer is no, not on the federal level. You’ll need to check on the state level though.
I mean claim Owner compensation Replacement for forgiveness. Is any amount forgiven via owner compensation Replacement considered taxable?
Hey I can easily show a 25% reduction I am an eBay marketer of marine parts that has almost a 50% reduction. I use PayPal and every transaction on eBay went into a documented PayPal account that shows how much and what the dates are. Could I use these account records They are my gross receipts and what is my loan amount based on then. Tom
As long as your lender accepts that documentation you may use it.
I have a question regarding my Second draw. I applied through Womply for the First Draw and got it, then for Second Draw they sent me a Docusign to sign and I failed the verification questions. I have been waiting for them to resend but nothing happens, and I’m worrying that the fund will be exhausted. Since I haven’t signed the document, can I start the application for the Second Draw with another lender? Or through you website? Please help.
You’re very close so we recommend you try to reaching out to your lender by email, phone or whatever method they offer. Give them a few days to respond as lenders are dealing with significant volume. If they can’t help you, you can apply through another lender and Nav will be happy to match you to a lender. However, you should makes sure your application is withdrawn by the first lender or it’s likely to create an error code for a duplicate loan.
I have 2 questions needing dire help with please, I own my business 100% as a house cleaner, I get paid by cash, Venmo, and checks that I have cashed at thier banks, I have found no PPP lenders that will accept gross receipts. They all want bank statements, Can you provide any leads to who will accept my application with only gross receipts?
Second. I have since opened a Corp C business account as of 2l3l2021, being that 2020 was under my name only using. My social security number, am I correct to place this PPP Loan request under my name only?
Any help would be enormous for me.
Thank you,
Robin
Have you filed taxes reporting this income? If so you may be able to use your tax returns from 2019 or 2020 to calculate your loan amount. If, however, you have not reported that income on your tax return that won’t count toward calculating your loan amount. Same with your now incorporated business; if you filed Schedule C under your name reporting this income for 2019/2020 that may suffice.
However the other issue is that you have to demonstrate that you were in business by February 15, 2020 and that may prove difficult given how you get paid. (We go into more details about what documentation is required in this article.)
I don’t have a list of what each lender is requiring and each one may handle your scenario a little differently. They are trying to adhere to SBA rules and not make a loan that may later be flagged as fraudulent. Unfortunately a lack of documentation makes that more difficult. You can certainly try starting your application at Nav and we will match you to lending partners making these loans but I can’t guarantee that your specific situation will be approved. You may want to post your scenario in our Facebook group: Business Loan Insight Financing Hub – PPP, EIDL and More on Facebook
Hey there,
If we had an overall gain for the year from 2019 to 2020 but a 25% reduction in our second quarter(comparing 2019 to 2020) can we still apply for the 2nd PPP loan and if used for the appropriate/forgivable things, it still be forgiven? Just want to make sure it’s based on the quarter of my choosing and not the overall year.
Thank you so much for you help! Great information!
As long as you meet the requirement for a 25% reduction in the one quarter compared to the same quarter the year before, yes you may qualify. And if you use the funds as required it can be forgiven. (You can choose to use year over year if you prefer but you aren’t disqualified simply because you use a quarter.)
Nav matches borrowers to PPP loans – you can get started here.
Such great info. Hopefully you can help with this:
I am a sole proprietor. I received unemployment insurance April to July 2020 (not quite the full allotted period of PUA), after which, I applied for a 1st round of PPP and received it. It was very minimal due to 2019 being a year I was working more W-2 than 1099. 2020 was full 1099.
Without the PUA income, I am able to show a >25% loss in 1099 MISC income for 2020 vs 2019 in the 2nd quarter. Does the PPP application consider this PUA as 1099 MISC or can I qualify showing only the 1099 MISC loss?
I have not fully completed my 2020 tax returns but have QB and can get a basic idea of the Schedule C numbers.
I am not an accounting professional and I have not seen this detailed in the SBA guidance. However, it’s my understanding that unemployment is not reported on Schedule C, but rather on the 1040 so I don’t think it would be counted. Again, I can’t say definitively.
I created an LLC and I’m the only employee (might employ my spouse and/or children) and opened for business in March 2020. From what I understand, I’m completely ineligible for Rounds 1 & 2 of the PPP since my business wasn’t open in February 2020. Is this 100% correct? I also understand there was a Round 3 of PPP approved so does this same February 2020 rule also apply for Round 3?
Did I miss any other potential funding if my business opened March 2020? Thanks!
My understanding is the same as yours for EIDL and PPP. (There has been some confusion about how to describe the various rounds of PPP but all of them so far require your business to be operational by Feb 15 2020). I’d recommend you also contact your local SBA resource partner to see if there may be state or local assistance for your business.
Hello,
My business was established in 2016 and I haven’t applied for PPP yet. I want to apply now but should I apply for first draw or second draw and which year’s tax should I use (i have both 2019 and 2020).
If I use the 2020 tax return, I could get more funds. So, does it matter which year’s tax I use?
Thank you!
If you did not apply yet then you will apply for a first draw PPP loan. (That’s easier anyway since you don’t have to demonstrate the revenue reduction.) You may use 2019 or 2020 so feel free to go with the year that gives you the larger loan. I’d recommend getting your application in as soon as possible given the March 31, 2021 current deadline. Nav is matching borrowers to PPP lenders. You can sign up for a free Nav account to get started.
Thank you, Gerri!
(For the answer). Appreciate.
My pleasure!
I understood the rule for 1st draw borrowers was that “If you were not in business for the time period beginning on February 15, 2019 and ending on June 30, 2019, then you can use your average total monthly payroll costs incurred from January 1, 2020 to February 29, 2020 and multiply that by 2.5.” My business began on July 7th, 2019. I have not found a lender following this rule in their PPP loan calculations. They are dividing the first two months of income in 2020 by 12 months to calculate the loan amount. I did not have any income after Febuary due to covid. Are any NAV linked lenders accomidating this rule?
I’m trying to get an answer to your question.
I am a 100% owner of a S Corporation and do take a paycheck. I qualified and received the first PPP loan. I am trying to apply for the 2nd PPP loan but the bank if asking for the 1st Q 2020 Form 941 to show the number of employees and to see if I was in business. I was in business for all of 2020 but did not take a paycheck for the 1st Q 2020 so I reported a -0- Form 941. Since there was no payroll for Jan-March 2020, but I am using my 2019 numbers to apply, will this -0- return not qualify me for the 2nd PPP round? My gross sales were down the required 25%.
Chris – Unfortunately I don’t know and I haven’t seen this questions specifically addressed. You may want to try to reach out to your regional SBA office to see if they can help.
Hi , I applied and received a email with documents to be signed that explained the amount I was receiving and interest rate , I signed all documents, does that mean I was approved for the loan and if so how long before I get the deposit?
Lenders must disburse within 10 days but it usually happens within a few days.
I am a sole proprietor and got funded for my first PPP loan the day before the new rules were placed for small businesses. Can I apply for a second loan during this 14 day period?
Talk with your lender Jessica. I’m not sure it’s logistically feasible since you must certify you will have spent the funds by the time you get your second draw deposited and that would not give you enough time to get full forgiveness. But check with your lender.
Does PPP loan leave a hard inquiry on my credit report thank you?
Very few lenders are checking credit for PPP loans.
Can you tell us which lenders are not checking credit
Other than Paypal, I don’t know any that are checking credit.
Hi. I was already funded but these changes would mean I should have recieved more funds. Do you know how that will work? Thanks
Not yet Robert. It may be that you’ll be able to apply for the difference. We’ll update this as soon as guidance is available.
Do we know what the new calculation for Independent Contractors is? Can’t find anywhere where’s it’s said plainly how it will help IC be able to get bigger loans. Rumor has it that it will allow IC/ sole proprietor to use gross revenue like the farmers, instead of net revenue. Hope this is true.
Donna – I just addressed what we know so far in a FB live. You can watch the video here.
Hi, I own a real estate appraisal firm, and one of our biggest expenses is a subscription to a real estate data service. It is essential to the operation of our business, but it is probably better categorized as a service than a “good.” Do you think this could be included as a “Covered supplier cost” that we could use PPP money for (and have it forgiven)?
What about the Covered Operations Expenditures? I can’t advise as to whether your expense is eligible but it sounds like a better fit. These are listed on the application as “payments for any business software or cloud computing service that facilitates business operations, product or service delivery, the processing, payment, or tracking of payroll expenses, human resources, sales and billing functions, or accounting of tracking of supplies, inventory, records, and expenses.”
What happens to small beginning business self employed but took a loss in 2020
Toni – We wrote about that in this article about how to apply for PPP if you are self employed. If your business did not show a profit on Line 31 of your schedule C in 2019 or 2020, and you did not pay formal payroll (with payroll taxes withheld) unfortunately you will not qualify for PPP.
I am eligible for the PPP loan if I can use MARCH-APRIL-MAY as my comparison quarter. (I am a calendar year filer.) How do I stay in the loop to learn if they decide to allow borrowers to choose the three consecutive months?
Trisha – We will update this article as new guidance comes out. You can also find updates at SBA.gov.
Just a reminder the 25% drop is only for 2nd draw PPP loans. You don’t need it if this is your first PPP loan. (Not sure what you’re trying to get but want to make sure that’s clear!)
Has this been clarified yet?
I can’t see which commend you are responding to but if you are referring to the self employed calculation we’re still waiting.
Hi Gerri,
Thank you for all the valuable information.
I have an S Corp with no employees (in business before Feb 2020) –
2019 was my first year so I was not able to do payroll & pay myself and 2020 brought very little income because of the city being on lockdown most of the year.
I am looking to apply for my first round of PPP, but can I apply without payroll ? Is it an option to demonstrate the loss of income from 2019 to 2020 instead for first time PPP application?
Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
Unfortunately PPP is based on payroll. This document describes options for calculating the maximum loan amount based on business type. (Keep in mind it was published before the latest round of stimulus so business owners have the option of using 2019 OR 2020.
I have the same issue as Vanessa for the most part. Been in business before 2019, S-Corp, no employees but myself, Was looking to hire a Proposal Manager to secure contracts in 2020 but could not due to COVID and city/state shut downs. I’ve never drawn a PPP loan but is the take away that I cannot qualify because I have no payroll yet other than myself? I had almost zero income in 2020 due to the lockdown. Thank you for your time.
Beth – Do you report your business income on Schedule C? If so the new formula for Schedule C filers (Line 7 instead of Line 31) may help. We describe it in detail in this article about applying for PPP if you are self-employed.
This was very informative. Has there been any additional guidance from the SBA on how to reapply (PPP1) for companies who returned their original PPP funds last May (exercised the safe harbor provisions). We returned our funds and received the Employee Retention Credit (ERC). The SBA did not allow a company to receive both at that time. That restriction has now been lifted and we would like to reapply for our original PPP. Thank you!
Yes, you need to contact your original lender. The guidance from SBA is here.
Hey! I had this same question, did you ever get it answered? Thanks!
Jeff – if your question is about how to reapply for the first round PPP loans you returned you’ll want to go back to your original PPP lender to apply for that.
We incorporated a new startup on February 12, 2020 (as a C-Corp) but none of the founders began drawing a salary until October. Would we be eligible for PPP funds if we didn’t have any payroll until later in the year? Can we use our Q42020 wages from form 941 (only) as the basis for our average monthly payroll costs?
I assume this is a first PPP loan. You can use 2020 as your base period. I am not aware of any exception that will let you use your last quarter only. Look at page 31 of the guidance from SBA as a starting point.
I meant to rate this article 5 stars but it won’t let me
Thank you! 🙂
Following the covered period of the first PPP loan, we have had to reduce our number of FTE employee level. We have a seasonal food service business and want to know what level of FTE do we need to maintain to qualify for forgiveness on the Second Draw PPP loan?
Do we compare the current level we have with the covered period for the Second Draw PPP or do we compare it with the period required from the first PPP, which was a period prior to March 2019 (a level we are certain not able to meet for the second draw PPP 24 week period).
“A business that wasn’t in business in 2019 but was in business before Feb 15, 2020 will compare gross receipts from 1st, 2nd, or 3rd quarter 2020 to 1Q 2020 to determine if gross receipts were reduced by 25%.” If a business LLC was created in late 2019 but did not have income until early 2020, would they qualify if their income was reduced by 25% in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th quarter as compared to 1Q 2020? Trying to understand what is meant by “in business.” Thank you!
It doesn’t say exactly Joseph. You can read the guidance here – in particular look at page 21.
Hello Ms.. Detweiler,
I received the funds for providing child care services to essential workers during the lockdown last year and received a 3 month federal grant. The funds were part of CARES Act and trying to figure out if it is considered non-taxable. I do not qualify for the next PPP if these funds are considered as income or taxable income.
Unfortunately I’m not sure about whether it would be considered taxable. I’d suggest you consult an accounting professional.
We have a startup business, started January 1st 2020. We did receive a PPP loan from the first round. I’m concerned about how the 2ed round PPP requirement of revenue reduction between 2019 and 2020 will affect a startup like mine. Could you let us know if a new 2020 startup will be included in the round 2 PPP.
The business must be operational by February 15, 2020. This article describes how to calculate the reduction in gross receipts for a business started on the first quarter of 2020. Here’s the language straight from the guidance:
(4) if the applicant was not in business during 2019, but was in operation on February 15, 2020,
the applicant had gross receipts during the second, third, or fourth quarter of 2020 that
demonstrate at least a 25 percent reduction from the gross receipts of the entity during the first
quarter of 2020 (for example, an applicant that had gross receipts of $50,000 in the first quarter
of 2020 and had gross receipts of $30,000 in the fourth quarter of 2020 – demonstrating a
reduction of 40 percent from the applicant’s gross receipts during the first quarter in 2020).
Gerri,
Did the final guidance definitely address a non-calendar quarter? Our sales were down well over 25% Mar-May, but that 3 month stretch does not fit neatly into a calendar quarter.
I did not see anything in there that clarified that. You can read the guidance here. Were you in business all four quarters of of 2019? If so then you may compare 2020 annual to 2019 annual.
Hello, If ive have started a business this month do i qualify
For the PPP Loan?
Unfortunately no. The business must be in operation by February 15, 2020.
I received the ppp loan in 2020 my gross sales for the4th quarter was down 23.9 % Does being 1.1 % under disqualify me from the ppp loan in 2021
Unfortunately that’s my understanding but I’d encourage you to read the guidance to make sure you are properly calculating gross receipts. Also if you were in business all four quarters of 2019 you can compare 2019 to 2020 if that makes a difference.
I own a LLC Partnership. I plan to use 2020 toward my calculation for the PPP2 loan. It is my understanding that I have to provide my bank the K1 to confirm my calculation for the loan. Since I have not completed my taxes for 2020 I do not have a K1 at this time. Is there other data/information I can provide my bank supporting my loan calculation?
You’ll need to ask your lender if they can suggest an alternative.
I received a PPP loan in May, 2020. For a 2nd loan, I am at 22% vs. 25% reduction. Can I still qualify for any kind of loan??
If you were in business for all of 2019 you can compare any quarter from 2020 with the comparable quarter of 2019, or on an annual basis. Does that change things? If not, maybe and EIDL loan? (Unfortunately it’s not forgivable but it is at a low interest rate.)
Dear Gerri,
Thank you for your time and expertise! We had a 30% reduction in the 1st quarter (this was not Covid-related.) My assumption is that the 25% recution between quarters is based on Covid-related reduction in revenue. Is that your understanding as well?
Thank you so much!
Geoff
The legislative language does not specify that. However, applicants must certify that “Current economic uncertainty makes this loan request necessary to support the ongoing operations of the Applicant.”
Started my business on 1/21/2020 as a sole proprietor, my business is to train people on Heavy Equipment. I was involved in a Veteran Business Program, it finished at the beginning of March, I had training set up at the end of March, Covid changed that. I finally got some training in May with June being a good month but then it was tough with Covid again. Do you have to use the 1st quarter or could I be able to use my 2nd quarter? My profits were down considerably for quarter 3 and 4.
You are getting a first draw loan correct? You didn’t get one before? If so then you don’t have to show the 25% revenue reduction. You can apply based on your 2020 net profit, Schedule C line 31. This article should help.
Question 1: I am a sole proprietor and got approved for the initial PPP Loan. On that application I listed “0” employees because it is just me. Will this cause an issue when I apply for forgiveness if I listed “0” employees? I am using all the money as payroll to pay myself.
Question 2: I am looking at the application for the Second Draw PPP application and noticed on the instructions for completing the form, it says “For purposes of reporting Number of Employees, sole proprietors, self-employed individual, and independent contractors should include themselves as employees (i.e, the minimum number in the box for “Employees” is one). ‘
This is confusing! I entered “0” on the initial application, so should I enter “1” for this second draw application??? It’s making me wonder if I’m going to have a problem getting the first loan forgiven if I entered “0”.
Please let me know if I am going to run into problems with the way I responded on the first application when I entered “0” employees, and what I should do with this second draw application.
That is confusing I agree. It shouldn’t create problems (though you are the 1 employee as self employed). I’m sure your lender will work for you. That must be why they put it on the second application – because people were missing that!
For the 2nd round of PPP, do we need to provide CARES Act reports for payrolls in 2020 or payroll reports in general for 2020? Or is it still based on 2019 information? Thanks.
If you are applying based on 2019 payroll you’ll supply a 2019 CARES Act report (or similar payroll documentation.) If you are applying based on 2020 payroll then you supply it for 2020. Unless you are self-employed with no employees you also have the choice of using the 1 year period before the loan is made. You can pick the time period that yields the larger loan.
Independent Contractor that files schedule C. Was in business all of 2019, net income of $9,200. Was available to be in business all of 2020 however work stopped with government shutdowns so my activity decreased. I haven’t fully closed my books yet but at most I only had $7,300 of receipts. With expenses that would be even lower. My best bet for calculating loan amount for first draw PPP would be the 2019 schedule C correct?
That sounds right Bob. You can pick 2019 or 2020.
I am having difficulty understanding the implementation of the EIDL Advance reduction repeal. My company submitted its PPP first draw forgiveness application in November 2020. The amount the was not forgiven was, naturally, the equivalent of the EIDL advance. Our lender started repayment in December 2020.
Notwithstanding the repeal of the EIDL Advance reduction, and the January 8, 2021 advisory from the SBA, our lender is continuing to require that our company make each monthly payment.
The best explanation that I have been able to draw out from our lender is that when the process with the SBA and them is concluded, and the PPP loan is fully forgiveness, we will be allowed to stop repayment and be credited for the payments we were mandated to make. As one SVP put it to me…why should the bank be the one at risk with this?
This setup doesn’t strike me as logical nor in concert with the public law. I have spent an exorbitant amount of time trying to find any language in an official document that would be on point with this situation and have unfortunately come up short.
How is this process supposed to work? Is there anything that I can put in front of the lender that states what should be happening? Or are we just in an unfortunate situation?
Thanks so much!
It’s a valid question. The legislation (Economic Aid Act) repealed the CARES Act provision that required the EIDL Advance to be deducted from PPP for forgiveness purposes. HR 133 (look at page 866 of the pdf). Then it goes on to state: (e) RULEMAKING.—(1) IN GENERAL.—Not later than 15 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Administrator shall issue rules
that ensure the equal treatment of all covered entities with respect to the amendment made by subsection (c), which shall include consideration of covered entities that, before the date of enactment of this Act, completed the loan forgiveness process described in section 1110(e)(6) of the CARES Act (15 U.S.C. 9009(e)(6)), as in effect before that date of enactment.
Here is the guidance the SBA published in the Procedural Notice. You could certainly share that with your lender.
Hi,
I am a minority business owner. Can I start the PPP process today? I also have 21 employees.
Anyone can start the PPP process today. The portal is open to certain lenders for the first few days but lenders are taking applications and preparing them to submit as soon as they can get the green light.
I have a question on the 25% reduction. We opened our business may of 2019, and we marketed our store heavily the next 6-9 months, most of which was giving away free Services to gain client flow. We also opened a second location June of 2020. However, while our client flow was impacted by 35-40% in our first location, our net sales are actually higher because of the impact of the marketing and the second location. However, I looks like per your article if we opened in the second quarter of 2019, we can compare our lowest quarter in 2020 to the 3rd or 4th quarter of 2019? Did I read that correctly and can you confirm if this is in the new PPP program? We have had a hard time confirming in any of the material that we have read.
Brandon – I’d suggest you read the guidance starting at page 22. There is an alternative scenario described for businesses that were not in business the first OR second quarter of 2019. However, I do not seen an alternative scenario for a business that opened the second quarter of 2019 other than to compare the same quarter from 2020 to 2019.
Hello,
I’m an independent contractor that gets several 1099’s and I’m paid to my LLC. I have over 25% reduction of pay from 2 out of 3 of the companies i contract with, but not a 25% reduction in income from the 3rd one which was started late 2019. Is there anyway I can be eligible for a PPP in this case or is it based on an overall reduction of 25% for the LLC
(business entity)?
Thanks for your help. I can’t seem to find these answers anywhere else.
I assume you file Schedule C to report your taxes? Does all your income from clients go on the same Schedule C? The reduction is based on your business…not per client. (If I understand what you’re describing correctly – not sure.) Have you read this article? Self-Employed: How To Apply For A Payroll Protection Program PPP Loan
My grand opening was February 1,2020. My first quarter sales are VERY low since i was closed all of January and sales tanked 15 March after COVID hit. So my First quarter sales do not accurately reflect a full quarter of sales. My 2nd,3rd, and 4th quarter sales 2020 are better than 1st quarter but not by much. My question is: How can qualify for the second draw PPP with the above situation? Anyway I could “cherry-pick” 1 Feb – 15 March as 6 weeks of non COVID sales?
Unfortunately I am not aware of any guidance that says that you can pick any 6-week period as you describe. We only have the guidance from the SBA which you can check yourself here.
But if you opened in 2020 that means you are trying to get a first time PPP loan not a second draw loan correct? If so then you don’t have to meet the reduction in receipts requirement. The reduction in receipts requirement only applies to second draw PPP loans.
I guess I should have stated the question: How can I receive the second Draw PPP with such low first quarter 2020 sales due to my grand opening being 1 February 2020. My previous post: I opened my doors 1 Feb 2020. Since my 1st quarter 2020 was very low sales (jan closed, 1 feb – 15 march GREAT sales, 15-31 March almost non existent sales). I will use %’s to describe my sales, basing 3rd quarter as 100% My first quarter sales were 70% (Jan 0%, 1Feb – 15 march 65%, 15 March – 31 March 5%). (If I were open the full quarter my sales would have been about 150% compared ) My 2nd quarter sales were lets say 80%, my 3rd quarter sales were 100%, my 4th quarter sales were 80% I received PPP 2nd Quarter 2020
I just read this comment. It sounds like you did get a PPP loan before. I am not sure I understand your percentages. As the article states you are comparing subsequent quarters in 2020 to the first quarter in 2020. (I am not sure I understand why you are comparing them to the 3rd quarter.) Was any subsequent period 25% less than that first quarter?
Here is the language from the guidance which you may want to review yourself:
(4) if the applicant was not in business during 2019, but was in operation on February 15, 2020,
the applicant had gross receipts during the second, third, or fourth quarter of 2020 that
demonstrate at least a 25 percent reduction from the gross receipts of the entity during the first
quarter of 2020 (for example, an applicant that had gross receipts of $50,000 in the first quarter
of 2020 and had gross receipts of $30,000 in the fourth quarter of 2020 – demonstrating a
reduction of 40 percent from the applicant’s gross receipts during the first quarter in 2020).
I did receive the first PPP. With the percents I was trying to verbalize that since I was not open January i’m missing a full month of sales which “artificially” lowers my first quarter sales. Since my 1st quarter sales were artificially lowered, my first quarter is the lowest quarter sales of the year disqualifying me for the 2nd draw ppp as it is worded. What Im trying to ask is how can I qualify for or relay my situation to the SBA (or whom ever makes the determination) to show them that I should qualify for the 2nd draw but can’t since my 2nd, 3rd, 4th quarter sales are higher than my 1st quarter “artificially lowered” I don’t qualify.
Hello, We have received and have our first PPP loan forgiven. My question is am I I eligible for the second round of PPP loan
We were not forgiven the full amount because it was difficult to get our employee head count back to 2019 levels submitted.
People preferred to stay home and get the extra 600 and we did not document that process.
The small portion that was not forgiven was turned into a loan which has been used for payroll beyond the allotted 8 week time frame.
Does this fall under not using all of the first round PPP
It doesn’t say it has to be 100% forgiven – it just says it has to be spent on eligible expenses before a 2nd draw loan is disbursed. Did you/will you spend all of the funds on eligible expenses? (Including the eligible non-payroll expenses?)
I am a realtor and I am so confused on if these PPP loans apply to me. I am a 1099 employee but I work for a brokerage.
Brook – If you are a 1099 employee you can apply yourself as an independent contractor. This article should help: Self-Employed: How To Apply For A Payroll Protection Program PPP Loan
Hello,
My company opened in June 2019. Just to clarify, we could compare Q3 or Q4 2019 to any Quarter of 2020 (that we choose) ?
That’s a valid question. Generally the idea is to compare any quarter in 2020 with the same quarter in 2019. But there are some exceptions for businesses not open until the 3rd or 4th quarter of 2019. But it doesn’t spell out an exception for a business started in the 2nd quarter of 2019. Do they expect you to compare the same quarter year over year? It seems so but I can’t say for sure since the SBA didn’t address it specifically. You’ll see it in the guidance starting on page 22. I’d encourage you to to take a look for yourself.
Of course this only for a 2nd draw PPP loan. If you are getting your first PPP loan that comparison is not required.
Thank you for the information. In the PPP application it does not indicate the 3.5 x multiplier for business with a 72 NACIS code. Do we just multiply by 3.5 in the field or will they automatically multiply?
Yes do that but check with your lender. I thought it was strange the SBA didn’t put it in there. (If you applied through Nav and run into problems, please contact our customer service team.)
Excelente trabajo para todos
Hello, I am self employed. I already paid back my first ppp because my eidl grant advance was more than My entire ppp loan amount. Now I’m reading that is changing with the new forgiveness details you listed above. Am I out of luck or can I somehow have that first loan forgiven and be reimbursed somehow?
David – The legislation does give the opportunity to request that PPP money you returned and then apply for forgiveness. You’ll need to go back to the lender that gave you your first PPP loan.
Hello. I am self-employed. I have 3 Landscaping crews of 3 men in each one. Total of 9 employees. I get paid cash and I pay then cash. I right down everydays earnings on my books since March 2019. I have no bank account and my business has spiraled down and I haven’t been able to pay my workers. How can I go about applying for PPP. My business is Gardening and tree trimming
I assume since you are paying cash you are not withholding payroll taxes. You cannot qualify for PPP based on money you pay 1099 contractors – they are not employees under the IRS definition. But I assume you filed a tax return for 2019 reporting your income using Schedule C? If you did then you may qualify using your net profit. We wrote about that here. If, however, you’ve been operating your business under the table without filing a tax return I don’t see how you will qualify unfortunately.
I formed my single-member LLC on February 22, 2020, but prior to that I was performing the same services as an independent contractor since 2019. Am I eligible to apply for a First Draw PPP loan? (Also sorry this may have posted twice with a placeholder!!)
Chelsea – It seems to me that would be fine as long as it was the same business. (You were in business even if you didn’t have a formal business structure.) However, the lender will have to work with you to make sure that they are confident the documentation will go through SBA approval. I’d suggest you apply and then work with your lender to try to get this through. Understand that it may be a little more work than other scenarios and I can’t speak for the lender of course. Nav is matching borrowers to lender starting today.
I have a full-time job in addition to my LLC, and no employees. So would I apply using the option of self-employed with no employees?
Yes Michelle. If you file schedule C with no employees that’s how you apply. Applications opened today!
If this is my first time how much do I ask for? Does that depend on my tax form? or 3.5 times the amount of what I made from my business?
Michelle – the loan amount is 2.5 times average monthly payroll (or 3.5 times if you are in a business with a NAICS code stqrting in 72). Our PPP loan calculator may help you understand this better. If you are self-employed with no employees, I recommend you read this article.
Hello – We opened our business on Nov 1, 2019. If we compare apples to apples (Nov 1-Dec 31, 2019 to same timeframe in 2020), we are down 40%. But if we have to use the whole 4th qtr of 2020, including Oct, in which we had zero $ in Oct 2019, we are no longer under 25%. Is there a way to remain eligible in this case? Will exceptions be made to allow reporting off exact timeframes?
I wish I knew Brooke. It makes sense to compare similar time frames but I’m just not certain. Right now all we have is the guidance the SBA has released which pretty much mirrors the legislation. (You may want to review it yourself.) I would encourage you to reach out to your elected officials in Washington as questions may prompt the SBA to address issues like yours.
We applied for and received the EIDL loan (both the grant, and later a loan that is deferred for payment until Mid-2021). Can we now apply for a second round of PPP loans that is forgivable?
EIDL is a separate program and doesn’t impact PPP. You may also apply for PPP – either a first-time loan if you never got one or a second draw loan if you didn’t. We anticipate opening up applications on Monday so feel free to sign up for a free Nav account and we’ll be happy to match you to lenders when it opens.
Thank you fir valuable info very useful
Hello! Great article! I doubt this is the case, but will we have a chance to change our first PPP amount? Literally as this was going down we hired 4 employees (all 1099 before). Obviously, it put some stress on us, but we held them on payroll. There was just no payroll figures at that time. Now there are.
Possibly. I’m not sure I fully understand your scenario. If you didn’t apply for the first loan based on full information you can request additional funds. But if you hired new employees after you applied for PPP I don’t think so. I’d recommend you contact your first PPP lender. And maybe you can get a second PPP loan?
Is there any relief if you opened your business last quarter of 2019, but your revenues for same quarter 2020 aren’t 25% less because you were a brand new hospitality business in 2019 and first few months of opening, you were building awareness. Our revenues aren’t anywhere near where we projected them to be one year later due to covid, however, our comparative to opening quarter in 2019 they are higher since we ‘ve been around for a year now.
Arken – Have you already received a PPP loan? If not then you can apply for a first draw PPP loan and that doesn’t require the the reduction in receipts.
Do we have any idea if the revenue reduction calculation is different for “New Entities” that were started just before Feb 15 2020? I see the language on how the loan will be calculated, but I cannot find anything on the revenue reduction calc.
Based on the general revenue reduction calculation, my business (Started in Dec 2019) would need to show a reduction in revenue between that 1 month in 2019 and the 3 months of the quarter that we were operating in 2020.
Any thoughts here?
Thanks!
The guidance that came out today did not expand on that so unfortunately I don’t have more information at this point.
When can I apply as self employed? And could you please send me a notification when can I apply for PPP?
Yes, please sign up for a free Nav account and we’ll alert you as soon as our lending partners are taking applications.
I am an independent sales contractor that works March through October for 2019 only. Am I able to take a PPP loan with the new program?
Al – you may qualify as a seasonal business. Independent contractors are eligible to apply.
If you received edil loan and grant in first round can you get another one? Also if you can’t and was given less than the 10,000 Grant ( due to amount of employees) can you get the balance.
Thank you for your help
Jim – Did you see this article? It goes into your questions in detail.
I received the PPP loan in round 1 and I am trying to apply for the PPP round 2 and there is a section where is ask this “During the period beginning on February 15, 2020 and ending on December 31, 2020, the Applicant has not and will not receive another loan under the Paycheck Protection Program.”
Does this mean I cannot apply for the second one?
You only got one PPP loan so far right? If so you can apply for a second draw loan. (That’s just saying you did not already did get a second PPP loan.)
Based on 2020 gross receipts I qualify as a seasonal business though I would not in 2019. Am I able to apply as a seasonal business? The calculation is more favorable that way.
The guidance that came out today includes this: “The maximum amount of a Second Draw PPP Loan to a borrower that is a seasonal employer
(meaning an employer that does not operate for more than 7 months in any calendar year or that during the preceding calendar year, had gross receipts for any 6 months of that year that were not more than 33.33 percent of the gross receipts of the employer for the other 6 months of that year)…” does that help?
1. Is application for PPP second round loan available? Are banks accepting the application? Our bank is saying the loan applicartion is still not out.
2. Can I qualify for 25% reduction in revenue on accrual basis even thout we file tax return on the cash basis?
Thanks
1. Not yet Sheela
2. All we know about the reduction in revenue is the language in the legislation which is described in the article. Waiting for guidance from the SBA on questions like yours.
I manage a hotel that has been in business for 38 years. It is currently under Mortgagee in Possession. The bank hired a management company who manages our payroll account and they applied for the PPP loan for us. Since then that management company has closed but staff of that company started their own Management Company LLC and still manage us and our payroll. They took over in October. They did not acquire the business they are just the management co. So technically we all work at the hotel but our paycheck comes from the LLC that has been in business since October, 2020. Can they still apply for PPP2 for us under those circumstances?
Thank you,
Patty
Patty – I don’t know. I haven’t seen this question addressed in guidance. I’d suggest you apply and discuss this question with the lender.
Hi, Great article.
We have a company that was in existence for a number of years, and we took over the company in October 2020 under a new TIN.
Would we qualify for the PPP based on a 25% reduction in revenue from the prior operator?
I’m not sure David how it works with a business acquisition.
I received PPP 1 ON 5/4/20 FOR $12,500 based on payroll of $5000/mo.. I will wait for new forgiveness form but , I had $5000/mo. payroll in May- August so forgiveness is no problem. My question is for ppp2 on approx. 1/15/21 -when is the time limits? Or will Feds base it on $5000/mo. payroll from ppp1? I realize I have to spend $5000/mo for 8 weeks after I receive ppp2 deposit so I can get ppp2 forgiven.
I’m sorry Michael I am not sure I understand your question. Does the FAQ under the heading How much can I get with a second draw PPP loan? not make sense to you? It says: You can arrive at this figure either by one of two methods— your choice (except businesses with a NAICS code beginning in 72 – see below):
-Multiply average gross monthly payroll cost for the 1-year period before the date the loan is made by 2.5 or
-Multiply average gross monthly payroll cost for 2019 by 2.5.
Hello,
The first PPP loan program had specific headcount and FTE requirements and lookback periods. Will the new “2nd Draw” PPP loan have the same headcount requirements, or something else?
If something else, what is it?
I expect it will be similar but we’ll have to see if the SBA updates any guidance.
Do I qualify for the ppp loan if I started my business Aug 1 2020?
No. As mentioned in the article the business must be operational by February 15, 2020.
What is the use age period for the loan money? In the first round it was 8 weeks. Our loan was wasted paying people to do nothing. I’d like to think we will get more time this time around.
As I mentioned above, the covered period to use the funds is 8 – 24 weeks. The legislation specifically says:
(4) the term ‘covered period’ means the period—
‘‘(A) beginning on the date of the origination of a covered
loan; and
‘‘(B) ending on a date selected by the eligible recipient
of the covered loan that occurs during the period—
‘‘(i) beginning on the date that is 8 weeks after
such date of origination; and
‘‘(ii) ending on the date that is 24 weeks after
such date of origination;’’;
So you get to choose that period as long as it falls in that window.
I opened my business Aug 1 2020. I have 16 employed people. Do I qualify for the ppp loan?
I work at a storage facility and we were not allowed to shut down? Though not considered “essential” we were never given hazard pay and now I’m wondering if the owners cashed in on these ppp loans? Upset obviously because we make mere wages and supervisors are not mask wearers or protected us? Now in the coming year I’m growing more and more concerned? Are they merely making money off of us being open since pandemic started and taking loans?
Gerri,
When determining the total eligible loan amount, is there no “seasonal” option for calculating the average payroll (ir, any 12 week period) when doing the algebra for the “hospitality” industry @ 3.5 x the payroll #? I believe you said the two options are average payroll over the prior 12 months to the loan or for 2019. Thanks. Tom
Tom – My understanding is that the seasonal calculation includes those in the hospitality industry. (You can just use 3.5x instead of 2.5x).
As mentioned, seasonal businesses may apply based on the average monthly payroll costs for any 12-week period between February 15, 2019 and February 15, 202o.
I have only work authorization and ssn for now, I’ve been working for uber and lyft for almost 3 years. Can I get this loan?
You may qualify Davis based on Schedule C net profit. This article may help.
I would like to know if they check your credit for these loans since they don’t have to be paid back? We have bad credit but need the help. My husband is a self contracted graphics artist. And were turned down for the edil loan but found out about the advance to late to apply last time and now with this new set of stimulus packages i would like to know what we can qualify for. So we can keep this business going through all this he has been in business since 2005 and doesn’t want to let it go now.
PPP: A small handful of lenders checked credit for PPP the first time around. From what I understand the lenders that Nav is partnering with don’t check credit. I encourage you to apply if you think you qualify – applications open today.
EIDL does check credit and we have heard from borrowers who were turned down due to credit. I’d still encourage you to apply if you think you qualify but understand there will be a hard credit check from Experian for an initial EIDL loan application.
If you have a blast email list for
These articles please add me. Thanks JS
Hi John – If you sign up for a free Nav account you’ll get alerted as soon as these loans are available again.
I am a sole proprietor, with an Llc, and subchapter S corp. My company was officially formed in 2015, yet I have not made a profit so far. Therefore I do not file a schedule C with my taxes. My paycheck was funded from my own savings, which are now basically gone. My savings withdrawals were from my 401-k, therefore fully taxable. So, I owe the IRS, have very little money left, and I have received $0 from all these programs. Any suggestions?
I’m sorry to hear that Steve. My best suggestion is for you to connect with your local SBA resource partners to find out whether there are state or local programs that may help. Also have you looked into Pandemic Unemployment?
As to the quarter requirement — appears to be calendar quarters.
What about fiscal year companies say 10/31 or 7/31 ye?
Do you use 1/31, 4/30, 7/31,10/31 as your quarters for a 10/31ye?
Thanks up front….
The legislation only says “quarter” but does not specify. Presumably we’ll get more guidance from the SBA on this issue – hopefully soon.
Thanks for this, This was one of the questions asked to you.
I understand that as with the first round of PPP, FTEs must be maintained to be eligible for 100% forgiveness in the second round of PPP. Can you tell us what time period is to be used when calculating the number of FTEs that must be maintained for 100% forgiveness in the second round?
My Question
I if I use 3rd or 4th quarter of 2019 for my comparison, and use the same quarter in 2020. I would have to use the same amount FTEs in 2019. We had to shut our dining room down and now we do just takeout. We had to lay off 25 employees because of this. Since April we have worked with 10 employees. I’m just not clear on the forgiveness part. There isn’t anything really written about this.
Thank you for any information and clarification you can provide.
It sounds like you are asking if the FTE reduction period must be the same as the 25% reduction in revenues period. My understanding is no. The reduction in revenues period is used to determine whether you qualify for a second draw PPP loan.
Forgiveness follows its own formula. We do not have guidance from the SBA yet on second draw loans but I assume it will be similar to the first round, with the exception that you can choose any period between 8-24 weeks as the covered period. (Not just 8 OR 24 weeks.) Hopefully we’ll get more guidance from the SBA soon!
Thank you so much. WOW so thorough and informative with clear facts and no false promises or hopes just clear cut facts! Perfect.
Thank you Kevin!
Hi Gerri:
Great article! Thanks for your time and effort.
I received an EIDL loan along with a PPP this past year. I understand that both the PPP and EIDL advnace loan are totally forgiveable now and that the EIDL advance grant will not be deducted from the PPP amount to be forgiven. How can I find out if my EIDL loan qualifies for the 3-8 month forgiveness being offered?
Thanks in advance.
Hi Mary Ann – EIDL loans are not forgivable – just the grants. I think what you are referring to is payment relief where the SBA makes payments on certain SBA loans like microloans or 504 loans. That doesn’t happen with EIDL. Instead no payments are required for the first year though interest accrues. And thanks for the kind words!
I did not get the EIDL advance they misplaced my application , my load was approved however they said they were out of the funds that paid for the advance. I see that I can apply this time for the advance , however looks like requirements changed as they are looking at areas with low income neighborhoods. Can you please assist .
Thank you
Ben
Yes, Ben, it appears to get the full grant you need to qualify based on the qualifications stated in the article. But let’s wait until we see the guidance from the SBA.
Abdul H Sundhu
HI GERRI
I operates business with 4+ contractors by paying them through 1099, I don’t issue W2, can I be eligible for Paycheck protection loan ?
The SBA has specifically said you do not qualify based on money you pay contractors (1099s). They can apply on their own. However, you may be eligible for some funds based on Schedule C net profits. This article may help: Self-Employed: How To Apply For A Payroll Protection Program PPP Loan. Although it refers to first-time PPP loans (not second draw specifically) the same principles are likely to apply this time around.
Hello ever time I enter my bussiness information it does not pull up I have all my Information and it is correct
Are you talking about in your Nav account? If so feel free to reach out to our customer support team Chrissy: support@nav.com.
Hi Gerri
great article. Clarifies so many things. One quick question. Our business falls into this catogory that you wrote:
“A business that wasn’t in business in 2019 but was in business before February 15, 2020 will compare gross receipts from the second, third or fourth quarter of 2020 to that first quarter of 2020 to determine whether gross receipts were reduced by at least 25%. ”
My question, we have only one client and they pay monthly. So 1st Quarter of 2020, we sent them invoices for Jan, Feb and March, but the March payment was received in our account on April 6th. (it is an international company based in Germany)
Can this gross receipt be calculated as part of Q1? The voice and services rendered were for the month of March 2020.
After that pandemic hit and they skipped 1 payment in each quarter which means 33% reduction. But I need to know if the 6 day delay of the actual payment is a problem.
Thanks in advance
All we have is the language in the legislation at this point. I expect we are going to get guidance from the SBA on how to calculate the reduction in revenues. (Treasury and the SBA came out with numerous Interim Final Rules after the last two rounds of PPP legislation.) Until then I can’t speak for the SBA.
Thank you I can imagine.. I was mostly asking from accounting perspectives. Does “gross receipts” include receivables invoiced in march for that quarter? (in general not for SBA or PPP)
Thanks
I don’t know yet. We’ll have to see what the SBA says in guidance. It’s a great question!
Thank you for this article. I am a sole proprietor who qualified for a first round PPP loan. That loan was based on my 2019 Schedule C. If the second draw PPP is based on GROSS quarterly income before expenses for 2019 compared to 2020, what am I supposed to provide to document my 25% loss? Will check stubs received from clients in each quarter in 2019 and in 2020 suffice? My business is a relatively simple one and I’ve never been required to prepare P&L statements or anything more complex than a Schedule C. Obviously, I don’t have a Schedule C for 2020 yet, and my 2019 Schedule C shows net profit, not gross. Also, when will I need to provide documentation? If i’m racing this article correctly, it seems to say all I have to do NOW is certify that I have 25% or greater loss and the documentation will not be required until I apply for forgiveness. By then, I could have a 2020 Schedule C.
Marlo – That’s a great question and we don’t know yet how Schedule C businesses will be required to demonstrate the 25% reduction in revenues. But I would advise you to try to get your bookkeeping up to date as soon as possible so when we get details from the SBA you’ll be able to apply confidently.
I have apply for the first around PPP and EIDL loan back in Mach, and I was approved for it. In June I sign for the loan agreement and get approved. but something went worry with the my number I put in for my bank account. So they told me to go on the port to correct it and I did, and SBA told me everything look good now. And the money would be in the bank within a week keep a check on the bank. Now it Aug I still haven’t receive any money yet. Talk to SBA representative and she need more information from me, so I have to given her a void check, income taxes, driver’s license front and back, and 4506-t form. I still wait on get the money.
So my question is
I was told not to apply for the second around of the PPP and EIDL loan money because I have been approved for the first around and have a approved number for the loan. Is this TRUE?
You apply separately for PPP so I see no reason why your pending approval for EIDl would affect your ability to get a second PPP loan. As for your EIDL loan, you do need to work with the SBA there – a second EIDL application may create problems with your first pending one.
My company got a PPP loan, which we think will be forgiven (have not applied for forgiveness yet), a $5,000 EIDL grant (no payback needed) and a $10,000 EIDL loan (unforgivable, and already repaid). The new legislation includes forgiveness for past EIDL loans – is that right? If so, can we get back the money we used to repay our EIDL loan?” Thanks.
The EIDL loan is not forgiven. Only the grant. Before the legislation the EIDL grant had to be subtracted from PPP forgiveness which in essence turns it into a loan. Now the EIDL grant will not be subtracted from the PPP and the EIDL grant is not taxable.
Does the first round PPP money received count as gross receipts when calculating the 25% reduction of from 2020 to 2019. In other words can i deduct the PPP money received from the quarter
It is our understanding that you do not include PPP funds in your gross receipts. We assume the SBA will clarify that.
Thank you for the information.
I have an SBA mortgage. That payment and interest will be covered for 3-8 months again providing I meet the criteria?
Do you mean an SBA 504 loan? If so then yes. I haven’t had a chance to write about SBA debt relief but will do so soon!
Good morning , I operate a non profit organization to care for in wanted farm animals mainly fowl, goats cats i have a volunteer who I’d like to compensate. am I eligible to apply?
You can apply for EIDL until the end of December 2021. You may want to ask the SBA about the use of funds, however. These loans are meant for organizations impacted by the coronavirus crisis.
I started my company in June 2019. I purchased a franchise. We started construction in November 2019. Completed construction around March 15, 2021. We started hiring employees late February 2020. Governor shut down the state March 17, 2020 our grand opening was scheduled for March 19, 2020. We opened March 21, 2020. We were told we did not qualify for PPP because we didn’t have payroll before February 18, 2020. It’s been very tough and no subsidy relief whatsoever. Will we qualify for this round of relief or PPP loans? Barbecue restaurant.
The legislation states: REQUIREMENT FOR DATE IN OPERATION.—A business or organization that was not in operation on February
15, 2020 shall not be eligible for a loan under this paragraph. I can’t speak for the SBA as to whether your business meets the definition of “in operation” but if it does then you may be able to qualify based on payroll for the one year period before the loan is made.
Gerri,
In my company we take advances during the year and then classify as payroll at the end of the year to reduce payroll processing costs. We pay in all the applicable taxes, however only the Q4 payroll tax returns reflect any payroll each year. Can I take that payroll and divide by 12 and multiply by 2.5?
I don’t have an answer for you unfortunately. I’d suggest you consult with an accountant familiar with PPP.
This is a great resource, thank you!
I took out my first ppp for approximately $90K and because I own a restaurant it looks like I will qualify for a second draw of $130K. Am I able to use the simplified forgiveness form for my 2 loans or because the total of the 2 loans is over $150K will I need to use the long form? Thank!
Will – I am pretty sure you’ll need to apply for forgiveness for each loan separately. But since this is new we may get more guidance from the SBA.
Thanks for this,
I understand that as with the first round of PPP, FTEs must be maintained to be eligible for 100% forgiveness in the second round of PPP. Can you tell us what time period is to be used when calculating the number of FTEs that must be maintained for 100% forgiveness in the second round?
Thank you
The legislation clarifies ‘the term ‘covered period’ means the period—
‘‘(A) beginning on the date of the origination of a covered
loan; and
‘‘(B) ending on a date selected by the eligible recipient
of the covered loan that occurs during the period—
‘‘(i) beginning on the date that is 8 weeks after
such date of origination; and
‘‘(ii) ending on the date that is 24 weeks after
such date of origination;’’
So presumably FTE reduction will be adjusted accordingly but as with all things PPP we’ll want to see what SBA says.
Hello Gerri,
Thanks for the clarification on the new PPP loan. I purchased an existing business on October 24, 2019 and received the first round of PPP money. Regarding the next round, I’m a little confused as I only have a partial Quarter to compare to any quarter in 2020. In what I am reading above is applicable to my situation, I would be penalized because I would be comparing 9 weeks in 2019 to 12 weeks in any quarter in 2020. Am I able to prorate my weekly gross receipts and use a weekly average for my comparison? Is there another rule that applies to someone in this situation?
Jack – Unfortunately we don’t have guidance for a situation like that yet. All we have is the language in the legislation. The SBA will no doubt have to come up with additional guidance.
Which form PPP should I fill out for my first time applying?
Hanjin – You can’t apply yet – as I mentioned in the article the SBA must come out with regulations and open it up again. If you sign up for a free Nav account we will alert you when lending partners start making these loans.
How do I apply for rental assistance. In the state of louisiana
Meg – rental assistance is not my area of expertise unfortunately. This article provides more information on how to apply.
I was approved for the PPP loan in the first round, however, funding ran out before I could receive it. Will I have to reapply or will they fund the original approved loan?
It will not be automatic unfortunately. You’ll need to reapply. If you sign up for a free Nav account we’ll let you know when lending partners are ready to make these loans.
Will there be any assistance offered to businesses that opened after Feb 15, 2020?
Not with this program or PPP. Most of the COVID-19 relief programs were designed for businesses that were already in business and impacted by the crisis unfortunately. I would really encourage you to connect with your local SCORE or SBDC office to see what local resources there may be for your business. They offer free help to businesses.
Hi Gerri,
Just to clarify, when they wrote “New entities may receive loans of up to 2.5X of average monthly payroll costs.” They were not referring to businesses that are formed after February?
I’m a restaurant that literally formed right after the Feb 15 date. Sad face
Unfortunately the legislation states the business must be operational by Feb 15, 2020 to qualify.
I do have an LLC that I’ve had since 2017, I own it 100%, and I did get the $1k grant from the first round, though I did not take the loan. I made consistent money the past year and a half because I lent money and received monthly payments in interest back for a year and a half, that was income on the side that I made the past year and a half. I reported that income under my LLC on my taxes, even though the money was going to a personal account at the time because I did not have a business account at that time the payments were set up. But even though the money was going to a personal account and not an LLC owned business account, I reported that income as my llc’s income, and my accountant told me I could do that, that it was legal since I own the llc 100%, since the llc is me. My last payment that I received was in April of 2020, and I did receive payments for 8 weeks before then, like the SBA grant criteria requires. This is how I received the $1k advance last time. So knowing all of this, my question is, when applying for the SBA grant and the PPP loan, can I report that income that i received for the llc? Or in the eyes of these programs, would they not consider that income as the llc’s income since the income went to my personal account and not a business account? I already reported the income as income for the llc on my taxes though, even though it went to my personal account. My accountant told me since I am the llc that it still counts as the llc’s income. Can I go ahead and apply for the grant and PPP loan and say that the llc received those payments as income with what I told you in mind?
Michelle – Please get a business bank account and use it for business purposes. It’s essential for many types of financing. That said you don’t have to have one to apply for PPP or EIDL. You can apply based on Schedule C information.
Okay, thank you for the information. I have a business account for the llc now. To show the loss to sba, will they ask for bank statements? Because that means, because I used a personal account to accept those payments, I would have to show them the statements for that account, right?
We don’t know yet what documentation they will use to show the economic loss. We’ll have to see what they come back with but hopefully they recognize that many smaller businesses run as yours does. Be sure your business bookkeeping is up to date in case a P&L or other financial statement is needed.
I’m a small family owned building contractor.
“ Covered Supplier Costs” – does this include materials we purchase from suppliers to build projects?
We issue purchase orders for these materials in advance of building the project.
Thanks
The definition of supplier costs is in the article and comes straight from the legislation. Unfortunately, until the SBA releases more guidance I don’t feel comfortable saying whether or not your scenario is covered.
I operates business with 10+ contractors by paying them through 1099, I don’t issue W2, can I be eligible for Paycheck protection loan ?
Is this based only on the one quarter loss ? Like we have one quarter showing a loss, but are up for the year on gross revenue. This is due to being a bid and contract business, so we are really just now starting to get hit with revenue losses due to being unable to get future work due to things being on hold with the pandemic (construction). we did get the first round of PPP money, my concern is specifically with the loss wording. To clarify, if we show a loss in one of the quarters, would we still qualify even if we are up for the year 2020 over 2019?
The way the legislation reads it is one quarter in 2020 compared to a comparable quarter in 2019. I expect we’ll get more guidance from the SBA but it appears to me the legislation recognizes that businesses were hurt at different times during the year. It definitely does not mention anything about whether the business is up for the year compared to 2019. You can read HR 133 yourself if you like – look on page 820:
had gross receipts during the first, second, third, or, only with respect to an application submitted on or after January 1, 2021, fourth quarter in 2020 that demonstrate not less than a 25 percent reduction from the gross receipts of the entity during the same quarter in 2019;
In our scenario, we applied and received a PPP loan through Bank of America and since then we have switched banks and the new lender isn’t participating in the PPP program. What are our options?. Do we need to find another bank and open a new account? I was also wondering when the SBA will start receiving applications on the 2nd round?.
Please advise. Thank you, Chris
You can apply elsewhere. If you sign up for a free Nav account we’ll match you to lending partners as soon as these loans are available. (No cost for that.) We don’t have a hard date yet – waiting for SBA guidance. I am expecting second week in January but that’s just my best guess at this point.
We are a med-tech startup that has been in business for 5 years. We’re under FDA review right now, and got the first round of PPP. We are not generating any revenue right now as our product does not have FDA clearance, so would we be eligible for this round of PPP with the 25% revenue lost requirement? Or is there some rule for non-revenue generating businesses?
Spencer we have no guidance yet – just the language in the bill which I have shared in the article. (You can also read HR 133 if you are curious.) We do expect on this question that the SBA and Treasury will have to issue some guidance– if nothing else to clarify the documentation requirements for larger loans so lenders can accept applications. Stay tuned!
Dear Gerri,
Thank you for your blog. In our scenario, we have switched banks after receiving the first PPP loan. Our new lender is not participating in the PPP program. What are our options when we apply for the second draw? Do we need to open an new account with a bank that does participate? Also do you know when the SBA will start receiving applications on the 2nd draw? Please advise. Thank you, Chris
Gerri,
As previously mentioned, the time and effort required to put something this amazing together is truly appreciated.
I have a question regarding a 25% decline in revenue. I have a business that began in the middle of June 2019 and was probably opened for 12 days in Q2 2019. I know it doesn’t meet the alternative quarter calculation of not being in business Q1 and Q2 of 2019 exactly but it very close. Do think there is any chance that we could ask to use the calculation since we were hardly opened in Q2 2019?
I wish I could tell you Mark! All we have at this point is the language in the bill. With the original PPP in the CARES Act, Treasury and SBA came out with guidance over time and this may be one of those issues that gets addressed in guidance– or it may not. Generally they have maintained that you can apply with the guidance available at the time so if they don’t address this question is may be that you have to use your best judgment based on the information available when you apply.
And thank you for the kind words – that means a lot!
Great article and very helpful. My business is very seasonal and I’m trying to understand how to qualify as a seasonal business. “gross receipts for any 6 months of that year that were not more than 33.33 percent of the gross receipts of the employer for the other 6 months of that year” and hoping you could explain with an example? Do the 6 months have to be consecutive?” Do these 6 months have to be consecutive? Or can it be any 6 months vs any other 6 months?
Martin – I assume it means consecutive but it’s a great question and the short answer is “I don’t know.” All I know yet is exactly what’s in the legislation. As with the last round, the SBA will no doubt have to issue guidance to clear up questions like this. In addition, lenders may have their interpretations of what it means.
Are there any lenders that don’t do strict credit checks. I got denied due to a collection on my personal credit.
Nicole – Most lenders did not do credit checks for PPP. I don’t believe the lenders Nav is working with will check credit for PPP but I’ll try to confirm.
I’m the sole independent owner of my business, no employees, and we didn’t have any profit losses this year, but we were supposed to open a storefront a month or two ago and obviously it hasn’t happened because of Covid, so we lost on a bunch of Christmas season sales. Do we still not qualify since our “numbers” didn’t mention any literal losses? We’ve been paying rent on the storefront space which has dug into profits a lot but have not been able to open the store to compensate.
Your business must have been operational by February 15, 2020 according to the legislation. It doesn’t sound like that’s the case…?
If it was open before February 15 would that qualify?
If you otherwise qualify then yes.
“Any business that got a first PPP loan must have used, or plan to use, their full PPP loan already received”
I noticed the Journal of Accountancy made the same statement. Where is this provision located/referenced in the new law? I could not find anything in H.R. 133.
Thanks for the information.
1. Your link to get a free nav account towards the bottom is broken.
2. I have my own business which I have been not been able to earn money from due to covid. I am the only employee, if I did qualify how exactly would I need to show where the money was spent if it just basically went to me being the only employee.
Sorry about that. Here’s the link to sign up for a free Nav account. If it’s just you then you’ll likely qualify using the previous guidance from the SBA for the self-employed.
THANK YOU, for this article I was searching the internet for this information and finally I get a well up to date information.
My business closed on March 28,2020 in the state of California. After being closed for 7 1/2 months we have the opportunity to open in the end of October for outdoor service. I have to spend a large amount of my loan money to adjust the business through tents and other expenses. After a short period of time the Governor of California announced closing again for unknown time. My loan is being used in its majority in rent, utilities, insurance and hardly nothing on payroll not my fault but my question is
How can I be forgiving for my loan this way if I cannot spend much portion on payroll? How can I apply for the second round of PPP if we still closed?
Please help me, I’m very confused
Harry – look at the payroll qualifications in the article. You can qualify based on 2019 payroll.
Miki – If you sign up here for a free Nav account we will alert you when these loans are available and match you to lending partners making PPP loans. There is no fee for this service.
What about Startups who were unable to properly expand or lost potential revenue due to the Pandemic? Can they apply and for how much?
Your business must be operational by Feb. 15, 2020 as stated in the article. If it was then you use the formula in the article. If you didn’t have payroll expenses however you won’t qualify unfortunately.
Really great article. Thanks for the time and effort put into it. Do you foresee any issue with using PPP proceeds for payroll of employees that were hired recently (October 2020)? How would this work in terms of calculating average 12 month payroll if lets say up until October my payroll expenses were $100k a month and with recent hirings in October 2020, my payroll is now $300k a month? Seems unfair to use the previous average despite my payroll/company tripling in size…
Michael – thank you for the kind words. You’ll use payroll using the formulas above. As mentioned you can use payroll for 1 year before the loan is made, so that would include some payroll for the more recently hired employee. It’s all far from perfect I know!
I started my business August 14th, 2020. My payroll has been sporadic. I had my employees on W2’s and now 1099’s. Most recently my payroll (W2) has been $1500 weekly. Will I be able to qualify for a PPP loan.
Joshua – You can’t count 1099s only W-2 employees toward payroll. But I’d also encourage you to read this article. You MAY be able to qualify based on Schedule C income. There are a lot of questions left to be answered if this bill is signed by the President and becomes law.
Great article!
If a client of ours did not apply for a PPP loan in the first round (either because they didn’t think they would get it or if they are a 501(c) 6 entity, can they apply for both a new PPP loan and a second round PPP loan at this time?
Robert – I don’t believe so but I wasn’t looking for an answer to that question when I read the legislation. We’ll know more when this becomes law.
Hello, I have an off question please. I worked abroad but paid by my US CA employer from. MARCH Until Dec 3rd then terminated today Jan 21st. I was on medical leave at the time covid hit and rushed from south Africa to USA after back surgery….
Workers compensation unsupported and contracted to renew in June I was left in limbo, understandably. However frustrations mounted as I tried to understand why I was increased pay and with sincere gratitude continue to be paid my salary although light duty. Humbled, I grovelled in gratitude. Time went on frustrations I couldn’t return mounted (rural Africa) requests to confirm receipt by my company of ppp and its terms unanswered for months. Do companies have to list publically? What are the end protection periods for all ppps
And are they for start ups 🙂
I asked fellow
I am sorry I am not sure I understand your questions. But first, no they are not for startups. You must have been in business by February 15, 2020 and you must be able to demonstrate that. And yes they have decided to publicly make available the list of PPP recipients.
Awesome article! So clear and concise, it answered every question I had. Thank you!
Adrienne – Thank you! Please keep in mind I’m updating it as I learn more so do check back.
To make sure I understand correctly. I have a business with over 300 people but less than 500. We have two locations. I did not apply for the first PPP. I can still apply for the second PPP loan, correct? We have an extreme high turn over, how do they count amount of employees? We pay an average of 330 people a week, we are a temporary staffing agency, but at the end of the year we have about 1500 W2s.
Lorena -After reading the legislation a couple of times my understanding is that you may apply for a first PPP loan using the same terms as the original CARES Act. I also checked with one of our lending partners who will be making these loans and they said the same thing. Of course we’ll know more when (hopefully!) this becomes law. You may want to sign up here for a free Nav account so we can alert you when these loans are available and match you to lending partners making PPP loans. There is no fee for this service.
What if my restaurant had to temporarily close as if December 14th because we didn’t have enough sales to support paying bills or employees? Do we qualify? Must we open right away to qualify? Without customers our employees are going to choose unemployment now; especially with the additional $300 and would you blame them? What are my options? We are a some what seasonal area and if possible would prefer to re-open when weather gets nicer so customers can dine outside. Would we still qualify if we held off re- opening?
Abbe – Yours is a situation where I would really recommend you get advice from a legal or accounting professional familiar with this program. You may qualify but then find you can’t spend the money in the right time period to qualify for forgiveness. If this does become law you will have until March 31, 2020 though it’s possible funds could run out before then. Again, when the stimulus bill becomes law I’d recommend getting help to determine the best course of action. (You can also try your local SBDC and/or SCORE office as many are helping business owners with these programs for free.)
I just started my own plumbing business in October. Things were going great, then the wife and I both got COVID. Spent a lot of time off work because of it. Am I not able to get any help from this?
Not if your business was not in operation February 15, 2020. Did you start it in October 2020? If so then no you would not qualify.
what if I am behind on my payroll taxes, is my business eligible?
Maybe. I can’t remember from the first round of PPP whether that was an issue but it is often an issue with SBA loans unless you are in a repayment program. I’d recommend you check with the lender.
I think you have to change the multiplier in the bullets for NAICS 72…
Businesses with a NAICS code beginning in 72 (generally hospitality businesses) may receive up to 3.5 times average monthly payroll cost using their choice of these two methods:
– Multiply average gross monthly payroll cost for the 1-year period before the loan is made by 2.5 or
– Multiply average gross monthly payroll cost for 2019 by 2.5.
Yes! Thank you so much. Fixed.
You state “Reminder the first quarter runs January 1 – March 31, the second quarter runs from April 1 – June 30, the third quarter runs from July 1- Sept 30 and the fourth quarter runs from October 1 – December 31st.”
Do we have to stick to those quarters OR an we pick any contiguous 3 month period representing the quarter for comparison?
Example: Feb, March, April of 2019 versus 2020.
Thanks!
The language used in the bill is quarter so I assume it will be standard calendar quarters. We’ll know more when the SBA issues guidance.
So is that a yes “you can use any three months” or no “you have to use the quarters Jan-Mar, April-June etc.” Your response is vague which may be intentional based on vague language of the bill, but please clarify this further
Sorry it wasn’t clear. The language in the bill says quarters so I assume that means calendar quarters not any three month period. But the SBA will issue guidance and may address that question.
Hello,
Thanks so much for your preliminary explanation of PPP 2,
I have a question, about PPP 1,
do we have to submit all paperwork before applying for the PPP2?
I appreciate your help.
Thanks,
What paperwork are you asking about? If you mean do you have to resubmit the paperwork you submitted for your first loan then I don’t know. The SBA Administrator will need to produce the new application.
The business revenue did not decline but never applied or received the first PPP. Do you know if we are eligible for this round based on not receiving the first round?
Nour if you qualify for the original PPP loan, our understanding is that you will be able to apply for that. We wrote about that here. (Provided of course this becomes law!)
Sincere thanks for your hard work and the open sharing of this crucial though changing information.
1. Noticed in the article a distinction for NAICS 72 coded businesses indicating potentially high 3.5x AMP, but the following text indicated 2.5x again. Was this a mistype that should have shown the higher 3.5x?
2. Our particular situation finds us as both EIDL and PPP1 recipients. We are literally days from completion of submission for full qualified forgiveness. Our financial institution recommended simplified application process using only payroll expenditures and the expanded 24 week period to qualify for full forgiveness though SBA EZ form route. Initial PPP just north of $100k. I understand through the bill read EIDL $10K currently deducted will be “satisfied” through financial institutions within 15 days.
a. Should we continue submission and PPP 2.0 will be treated as a separate loan experience?
b. If PPP 2.0 is separate loan rather than 2nd draw on first loan will we likely remain below the new $150k limit for simplified foregiveness.
c. Do any of the calculation choices from PPP1.0 effect decisions for PPP2.0 such as using payroll only and 24 week period for PPP1.0 while then opting for 8 or 24 week period and rent/utilities expenditures for PPP2.0?
Much thanks.
1. That was a typo another reader pointed out. It’s 3.5x for businesses with a NAICS code starting in 72.
2. If this legislation is signed into law (hopefully soon) then they will no longer deduct EIDL advances from PPP for forgiveness purposes.
a. I’m not sure I understand but the second draw PPP loans do not appear to be contingent on having your first one forgiven. If you believe you qualify, then you can apply.
b. I don’t have an answer to that question. It sounds like each forgiveness application is a separate experience and that they aren’t lumped together but as with the last round of PPP there will be lots of additional guidance that comes out.
c. Not that I’m aware of. That isn’t the way I read the legislation but again we don’t have guidance yet on these new loans.
Please confirm that you can now include in payroll costs the tips reported in an employees salary. We did not do that in first PPP loan calculation since it was not deducted as an expense on company books.(tips collected from customers was not part of gross revenue and tips included in employees salary not deducted as salary expense).
I can’t offer advice for any specific situation and I am not an attorney. My understanding is the same guidance that applied in the CARES Act applies here (unless contradicted) and the SBA did issue guidance for including tips in the first round of PPP. If you did not get your full PPP loan the first time this legislation does allow you to apply for the difference. I don’t think that will count against a second draw loan either, though I’d want to see guidance from the SBA.
Gerri – great article!! Under the “What is a Seasonal Employer?” section, the seasonal definition uses a “preceding calendar year” timeframe while the “How much can I get with new PPP loans?” allows for a payroll calculation from “any 12-week period between February 15, 2019 and February 15, 2020.” I have to use my Q4 to get below the -25% YoY funding threshold (meaning I must apply in 2021) but I want to use a normalized (non-COIVD) seasonality definition from 2019 that put me below the 33.33 percent seasonality threshold that I don’t meet in calendar year 2020.
Any Thoughts??
Tye – Great question but unfortunately I don’t know. It seems to me they are different calculations. One is for whether you qualify as a seasonal business and the other is whether you qualify based on revenue loss. But all we have is the legislation at this point and the SBA will no doubt have to come out with guidance.
Is the 300 employees requirement measured by quarter and is it 300 FTE.?
Thanks
Great question Shawn. It is presumably at the time of application as it was in the CARES Act but no guidance yet. (And there won’t be until the President signs it and it becomes law.)
What if the business has been open for 20 years but there was a change of ownership after feb 2020. Is the new listed owner not eligible for PPP even though he retained all the employees and the business is exactly the same as it was?
Bill – I don’t know. That will be a question for the SBA when this becomes law.
want to apply for 2nd ppp loan i was approved for grant but not loan will i be able to get a second grant and should i not apply again i have proof of the 25% gross receipts, if so will doing the same EIDL loan application before the new one come out prevent you from getting qualified for the 2nd ppp
EIDL and PPP are separate applications. I am not aware of any reason why you can apply for both if you qualify. Many businesses got both in round 1.
I applied in July I was approved they have all my pertinent information my account could not accept the amount given, it was no problem gave them my other business account. It is December 23rd and I’m still waiting. I’ve never received the PPP loan. I’ve jumped threw every hoop, signed the agreement everything. My portal says it was distributed but never was. I’ve contacted via email and phone over 100 times. Nothing. Should I reapply st this point?
Barb – what a nightmare! You’ll want to make sure you get that first loan since you are likely in the SBA system as approved. But yes, if you qualify you may apply in this round.
My question is have they, or will they lessen the restrictions for business owners with felony and or on probation?
I didn’t see that in this legislation but I’m going to read it again today and I see any changes I’ll update you here.
I’m a independent Travel Agent who has obviously been affected by this pandemic. How would I qualify for a loan/PPP?
When the program opens you may apply if you qualify. As I mentioned we are still waiting for the President to sign the stimulus bill. If you sign up for a free Nav account we will match you to lenders.
Hi Gerri Detweiler
Thanks for the update .
As a women this information is very helpful. But our we were never able to receive any grants . The ppp loan had us only $5,000.00 and nothing more . We are the delivery driver first responders and nothing was going well. Since I was turned down after running my business at home for over 15 years , my son also was turned down also working from home for 10 years . I hope this time it’s not so bad help minority with the correct self employed minority.
Also so if u ever get a chance to interview women about a device called TVT sling I would be happy to speak to u .
I know about a very dark future that Johnson and Johnson has plans to continue to butchering and slaughtering us by keep this product on the market because the FDA said no matter what it agreed upon as it’s what will happen to women . My fear is our grand daughter, sisters, mom, grandmother, and aunts will suffer the most taking away our ability to stay in in the world as strong healthy women .
Since I was in my earlier 40 ‘s then we found out that ladies in their 30 ‘s having young daughters where in wheelchairs . 20’s and teenagers will be next . Taking away all our independence. These investors had mothers how else did we get here . I want women to know just how important we as female humans need to now and warn them about this problem. And none of us were ever paid the million of dollars they wrote about because lawyers and politicians stole all the settlement but we are the victims.
Thank u very much
what are the new rules for 25%decline for ranchers&farmers??
You’ll find them on page 2087 of the legislation CNN published here. (It’s page 2087 of the PDF.) I’m sorry I haven’t had a chance to write about that yet.
Some of these so called business owners who apparently cannot even understand how the PPP loans work and or PUA and all the lingo after reading how well you you just laid that out, ought to be ashamed…
I understand that it’s confusing! I have to remind myself at times to use the right terminology! Lots of acronyms.
Am.im going to be able to get PPP this time. I opened the new restaurant in June 29.2020. I started working k was ready from aprill with all documents and everything but in illinois everything was closed and when they let us open in June 29 I opened as well. My question is am.im going to get PPP or not. Thatnks
A business must have been operational by February 15, 2020 to apply for the new PPP loans so it doesn’t look like that is the case.
Is this only if you have employees?
No. The article mentions that independent contractors and the self employed may qualify.
I already have an EIDL grant ca I qualify for a PPP?
yes
Just opening my business in August 2020 can I apply for the loan?
The legislation states the business must be operational by February 15, 2020.
I applied and was approved for he PPPP forgiveness minus the EIDL grant. If this bill is signed by the President, so o go back to my bank and ask for more forgiveness
Yes though the procedure for getting that balance forgiven isn’t clear yet.
Can my business use and 3 consecutive months as my quarter? For example I have a 39 percent reduction in gross revenue in May, June, and July of 2020 as compared to those same exact months of 2019. Thank you
The legislation says “quarter.” Until the SBA provides further guidance I would assume that means a calendar quarter.
Thanks for the great info.
Are there any fees/expenses to borrowers who use Nav?
Nope. There are no borrower fees for PPP loans and you won’t pay any more than anywhere else.
I’ve been a sole proprietor over the last past 10 years I applied for the grant before the due date was up and end up getting disqualified because they said they did not have enough information from me and always kept my taxes paperwork and good standards??? Can I reapply for the grant
Lamar if you meet the qualifications in this article you should be able to apply. We’ll first need the President to sign the legislation.
How about first ppp.loan is forgivable, so I don’t need pay off. Can I reapply for current ppp.loan?
These are second draw PPP loans so yes you may apply if you qualify.
MY EDIL LON WAS REJECTED AFTER I GOT APPROVED WHY??
Sharon – I have no idea unfortunately. You’ll have to ask the SBA.
Thank you for a concise article!
If I already received PPP and an EIDL loan from Cares, and my 25% reduction in sales (1 quarter comparison 2020 versus 2019) is true, can I still apply for this
2nd round of PPP?
If you qualify yes. These are a second round of loans.
We took a $4.000.00 EDIL advance grant when I first apply. We also got 30.000.00 PPP. I just applied for Forgiveness. Would the advance still be deducted from the total PPP forgiveness
Thanks in advance for your answer
Not if this legislation becomes law. We’re waiting for the President to sign it.
We’ve opted to forgive the PPP loan to get the ERC instead. Are they still exclusive, or can we apply for a PPP this time even though we’ve been claiming that tax credit?
I haven’t gotten to that information yet Roger. When I do I’ll let you know.
We got our previous EIDL and PPP in April through NAV
What do we need to do for the latest one
Robert – If you are still a Nav customer you’ll get an email from us as soon as lenders are taking applications. EIDL only comes directly from the SBA and we’ll have to wait for them to open up the new application portal for the new EIDL grants.
Great write up, thank you. We would like to apply for PPP.2 ASAP.
Joshua – If you want a second PPP loan feel free to sign up for a free Nav account and as soon as our lending partners start taking applications we will notify you.
I am the sole proprietor of a small business. I provide tax services. I was denied the EIDL last time. I’d like to hire at least 1 tax preparer. Can I apply for both this time?
First the President must sign the legislation. If he does then it’s possible you may qualify this time around. We’ll need more details from the SBA of course.
Hi, I’ve been a self employed mechanic for years, but I’ve also had a 9-5 job in a franchise automotive shop up until September of 2020 when I left for lack of work due to Corona. I started my own LLC this year in July. Will I be eligible for the PPP loan?
Your business doesn’t have to be an LLC to qualify but it must have been in operation by February 15, 2020.
Hello and thanks for the time.
We own a small plumbing service company that is being affected financially by this horrific virus.
We received help a few months after the pandemic started from the SBA but the money was used up in rent/payroll/utilities etc. We just started paying the employees we had threw a payroll company 3-months ago they were let go 2-weeks ago in 2019 we paid our employees with a personal business checking account every week and kept a record of it.
So my question is: can I apply for the ppp loan? and how to i figure out the amounts for our payroll cost? and do me and my wife count as payroll?
Max I expanded the definition of payroll in this article. Please review that section. Yes if your wife and you are employees of the business then your payroll can qualify. If you don’t pay yourself payroll but file Schedule C read this article.
I was denied on the first round. According to these current qualifications, I may qualify. Need assistance on application
Hi Jacqueline – First the President needs to sign the law. Then the SBA will need to release the application and open the portal. Until then it’s impossible to assist. If you apply through a Nav lending partner our customer service team will do its best to answer questions about the application.
THIS WAS VERY INFORMATIVE AND HELPFUL
YASSSSSSSSS
I NEED MORE FUNDING!!!!
Thanks Jenny! Let’s hope the President signs the legislation so these relief programs can get going quickly.
Who can I talk to to get help this time as well. We have only been in business a little over a year.
Andrew if you apply through a Nav lending partner our customer service team will do their best to answer questions about the application. You can sign up for a free Nav account and we will notify you when they start lending.
My business is a fitness center in NJ, that my wife and I own. We own the land building and equipment free and clear. We are an LLC . We have two grown children who are also employees. My wife and I lease the land and building to the operating LLC for a monthly rent, which is our income. The kids are paid through gifted amounts of money from my wife and I. How would I handle an application for PPP for the rent we lost in the 5 and 1/2 months we were forced to be closed and the lost gifting to my kids for same amount of time. We pay property taxes and all other expenses of running center.
Gary – you qualify for PPP based solely on payroll costs. The formula is described in the article. It’s 2.5 times average monthly payroll. I don’t know what you mean by paying your children through gifted money. It needs to be money paid through the business.
I enjoyed this article and rate it 5 stars. Unfortunately I accidentally hit 1 star. Your info is great. Thanks.
If my business has done fine but I would like to apply for an SBA loan of like $150,000 for equipment upgrade and maybe redo my simple 80k credit line have the guidelines gotten more strict or easier now with this Bill passage now or no change.
Note: my revenue has not dropped below 25% so it looks like the guidelines won’t help me ?
It sounds like you need a different type of SBA loan. This article may help.
Hello i need help with appying. I was denied the first time as well
Apologies Demitria – I’m getting inundated with questions and I’m still trying to understand the legislation. Please sign up for a free Nav account and we will email you as soon as our lending partners are taking applications. Our customer support team will be taking questions at that time and if they don’t have an answer they will reach out to me. There are still many unknowns.
We didn’t take the PPP loam the first time around but our city we in has already forced us to close the business again a few weeks ago with their new covid mandates in Baltimore. Who do we need to contact in order to get the ball rolling with filing the request for the loan and grants? Thanks in advance for the assistance.
Chris – Nav will help! Sign up for a free Nav account and as soon as our lending partners open up the new applications you’ll get notified. We have lending partners ready to help.
Thank you for the information. This year has been a tough time and reading this makes me feel a little better for my small business.
Covid is literally killing me with stress trying to get through this.
I’m so sorry Dwayne! I hope this works for you. Fingers crossed.
Didn’t get approved last time
I’m a independent contractor
At a small volume would love to grow but
Keep getting turned down for loans
My business is legal i just don’t understand why I get no help
Christopher – it’s hard for me to say what the hurdles are. If you set up a free Nav account our Credit & Lending Specialists will be happy to review your financing options with you. A Nav account doesn’t impact your credit scores and we don’t sell your information to lenders.
In addition, I wonder if a microloan might be an option worth looking into.
I have signed up for a nav account.
Are you currently matching people with lenders for the new ppp loans
As soon as they open up yes! (I don’t think the President has signed the legislation yet.)
Please let us know how to attain a new PPP loan.
We did receive the first one.
Thanks
Hi Danny – If you sign up for a free Nav account we will email you as soon as lenders start taking applications.
What if I operated as a sole proprietor last year, but then turned it into an LLC within the past few months of this year? Do I apply again under the LLC?
As long as it’s the same business and not a brand new one I don’t believe the change in business structure should be a hurdle.
Who can I speak with to have my loan forgiven considering it was less than $15,000?
You will apply for for forgiveness through your lender so you need to reach out to them. You may already be eligible for the 3508S form which is pretty simple or you can wait for the new simplified forgiveness application (not out yet but coming soon).
What if they ran out of funds on the first round? Is there a need to reapply?
Are you talking about PPP or EIDL grants? Either way, you will have to reapply to my knowledge. We don’t have specifics until the legislation passes and the SBA and the Treasury Department issue guidance. We’ll keep updating our articles!
“the number of months in which those costs were incurred”
For new businesses, how is the number of months determined? Is the first date 2/15/20, 1/1/20, or some other date?
I pulled the quote from this text:
“New businesses (that were not in business for the 1-year period preceding February 15, 2020) will use a slightly different formula to arrive at the average monthly payroll costs. They will divide the payroll costs paid or incurred by the date they apply by the number of months in which those costs were incurred and multiply the result by 2.5.”
The number of months is determined by the number of months in which those payroll costs were incurred. Here’s exactly what the text of the legislation says: ‘‘(iii) NEW ENTITIES.—The maximum amount of a covered loan made to an eligible entity that did not exist during the 1- year period preceding February 15, 2020 is the lesser of— ‘‘(I) the product obtained by multiplying— ‘‘(aa) the quotient obtained by dividing— ‘‘(AA) the sum of the total monthly payments by the eligible entity for payroll costs paid or incurred by the eligible entity as of the date on which the eligible entity applies for the covered loan; by ‘‘(BB) the number of months in which those payroll costs were paid or incurred; by ‘‘(bb) 2.5; or 25 ‘‘(II) $2,000,000.
This may be one of those items where the SBA will need to clarify in additional guidance.
I’m on Social Security and as a side hustle I charge gas money to take folks in my neighborhood to go to store or cash their checks. Does this qualify and will I have to report it to Social Security
If you’re not reporting your income on your taxes then it’s not going to help you qualify unfortunately.
Hi I am an independent contractor and would like to know when I can apply, how I can apply and who can help me apply to know I am getting the help I need? Please and thank you very much!
Independent contractors are eligible if they meet the requirements spelled out in the legislation. If you sign up for a free Nav account we’ll alert you when lending partners start making these loans. Our customer service team will try to answer your questions about the application though we can’t give legal, tax or financial advice.
Re:
“Can I reapply for a loan if I returned my first one?
You may. If you returned all or part of your PPP loan, you may apply for an “amount equal to the difference between the amount retained and the maximum amount applicable.” Or, if you did not accept the full amount you may request a modification to allow you to borrow the full amount for which your business is eligible.”
Question 1. Restaurant awarded $728,000 in PPP 1. City closed and locked down much of 2020 to current. Only $400,000+- drawn on account at major bank where funds were deposited. Because ALL of the PPP 1 was not spent, it would seem that NOT QUALIFIED for PPP 2. However, (a) some financial blogs infer that the UNUSED funds could be returned PRIOR TO applying for forgiveness, and/or (b) your above statement that there is an AMOUNT that can be calculated for PPP2. What would that amount be in this instance?
Question 2. Restaurant landlord, a major public company, allowed deferral of payment of the minimum rent until the restaurant demonstrated that it could make it. The monthly amounts have been accrued but not paid during the covered period. Can such payment be made now with the residual funds from (1)?
Thanks so much.
You have to certify that you used or intend to use your first PPP loan in full. I haven’t seen anything that says you must return your first PPP loan to get a second draw loan. Expect more guidance from the SBA when this becomes law.
If you qualify for the second draw you use the calculation in the article under How much can I get with a second draw PPP loan? As a restaurant you you should qualify for 3.5x average monthly payroll.
Not sure – the language says paid or incurred but I’d strongly recommend you check with a tax professional. You don’t want to get this one wrong and discover it’s not forgivable.
After reading the PPP section of the bill, I was surprised to see “gross receipts” for the 25% decrease eligibility criteria. Is gross receipts really the most accurate number to look at, especially when many businesses might have taken on varying (also, new) levels of COGS during the pandemic? What if companies greatly reduced their profit margins on products in an attempt to survive/continue to do business, yet had similar gross receipts to 2019 quarters? I truly hope they look at a different number than gross receipts to determine eligibility.
Brian – that’s how the legislation reads so if this becomes law I doubt it will change. But with the first round of PPP we did see the Treasury department and SBA issue guidance that didn’t seem to match the intent of the legislation so who knows!?
I was too late for the PPP last time and denied EIDL for frozen personal credit. I really could use the help how do I go about applying to ensure I will be able to save my business? Thank you
Joshua – First we need the President to sign the legislation. When he does (hopefully and soon!) we’ll update this article and our article about EIDL grants. If you sign up for a free Nav account we’ll alert you when our lending partners start lending. For EIDL you’ll apply through the SBA.gov website. We’ll continue to provide updates so hopefully you can get the help your business needs!
I also was denied last time. We are a LLC S-Corp Floor Cleaning company and we had started in May 2019 (when we filed our LLC) we didn’t start doing business until September 2019.
The lockdowns affected our March,April,May for 2020 severely (April being the worst month on record for our company) but after that we started having record breaking months consistently until November 2020.
My issue is more so I was denied a PPP loan due to not having payroll as we were paying back our initial investment instead of having paychecks and we had no employees at the time. I carried an employee from July 2020 to November 2020 and recently hired another employee.
Will we be eligible for a PPP this time around? The new lockdown is already having an impact as my phone calls have dried up. Our commercial business is non-existent since the initial lockdown. It was residential work that saved us.
The maximum loan amount for new PPP loans is still tied to payroll (2.5 times average monthly payroll) but as you’ll see in the article there are some alternative scenarios for newer businesses that may provide some flexibility. If not you may be able to try for an EIDL loan or the new EIDL grants. (I’ve shared what we know about the new EIDL grants here but there are still unanswered questions.)
Thank you for taking the time to clearly explain this, it is very much appreciated!! Merry Christmas to you and yours.
It’s a work in progress but I’m glad it helped! And hoping this relief helps more small business owners still struggling. Merry Christmas to you as well.
Who can I talk to to get help this time since we were denied a loan last time?
Hello,
Can you email me too? I’d like to apply for the new PPP 2.0 loan.
Can you email me information as well on how to apply?
Bryan – the only information I have at this point is what’s in the article. If you sign up for a free Nav account we will email you when our lending partners are able to accept loan applications. (First we need the President to sign the legislation and then for the SBA to get the ball rolling so lenders can take applications.)
Hi Gerri can you please email me also where can i apply since i too was denied the last time thanks
Rene – First we need the President to sign this and then we need the SBA to open the portal. If you apply through a Nav lending partner our customer service team will do their best to answer questions.
Can you email me as well
I’m sorry I am barely keeping up with the legislation and all the questions. Please sign up for a free Nav account and we will email you as soon as our lending partners are taking applications. Our customer support team will be taking questions at that time.